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Let's Get Lost with The Oceanic Three
We're your Oceanic Three: Theresa, Amanda, and Kip. Join us as we get in-depth about our favourite television show - Lost! We talk about everything: The Island, The Survivors, The Tailies, The Others, The Myths, The Theories, and on and on and on, but we also talk about how Lost changed the television landscape when it came out and how it still reverberates to this day.
Most of all, though, we always come back to how Lost is primarily a character-driven show. For every myth and mystery, five incredible character stories were told. They were complex, mysterious, beautiful, and sometimes challenging to watch - but the characters and their interwoven lives brought Lost to a different level unlike anything ever seen on television.
We would love it if you joined us as we get in-depth about all the Losties, what makes them tick, why they do what they do, and ultimately - what they're doing on the Island.
Let's Get Lost with The Oceanic Three
Let's Get Lost 77 - Season 4: The Shape of Things To Come
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
One gunshot, one lie, and one monster call turn Lost into a sprint, and we’re still recovering. We’re Amanda, Kip, and Theresa, and we break down “The Shape Of Things To Come” (Lost Season 4 Episode 9) scene by scene, from the cryptic 14J warning to the Barracks attack that feels like the show hits the gas and never lets up. Along the way we get into the behind the scenes context of the writers strike and why this season leans into “super high octane storytelling,” where huge events arrive with almost no runway.
We talk Ben Linus at his most revealing: the flash forward mission, the Tunisia to Iraq jump, and the way he weaponizes Sayid's grief to move one step closer to Charles Widmore. That opens a bigger conversation about character writing and why Saeed’s shift starts to feel less like evolution and more like the show struggling to know what to do with him. We also can’t ignore the episode’s small human beats, like Risk night at the Barracks, Sawyer’s protectiveness, and Hurley being the clearest heart in the room when everything starts breaking.
Then we go straight into the gut punch: Alex, Keamy, Ben’s desperate gamble, and the question we keep circling back to, accountability. Ben may not pull the trigger, but we argue he still owns the outcome, and Widmore calling him out only makes their twisted rivalry sharper. We also unpack the Smoke Monster moment, the first big “Who the hell is Jacob” energy, and why Locke’s need to feel special becomes unbearable under pressure. If you love Lost recaps, character analysis, and mythology-heavy debates, hit subscribe, share the episode with a fellow fan, and leave us a review. What’s your rating for “The Shape Of Things To Come”?
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Intro Banter And Host Dynamics
AmandaWe're three best friends, and we love lost, and we love talking.
KipBut even more so, we love talking about lost.
TheresaSo join us for some good conversation, laughs, and let's get lost together. Together.
AmandaStill gonna be my favorite thing of all the time.
TheresaNo, because we're not going to be able to do that.
AmandaSeason five, actually. Yeah. Season five.
KipThere's two other ones. I just haven't uploaded them to the soundboard.
AmandaNo, that's a good one.
KipBut now it's not gonna happen. We're almost done.
AmandaAnd then we'll record a new one, and hopefully you'll get your shit together by that one.
TheresaBut there are two more where I do get my shit together. Well, I mean, there's some real evidence from that. Yeah, we don't know yet. I don't remember what they be worse for all we know. I don't think so. Well, we'll see.
AmandaThat's we don't know, really.
TheresaI mean, we'll never know because we're gonna record a new one for next season.
KipHello, everybody. We're we're here to talk about loss and our intros and how well they've been going.
TheresaEverybody else sounds fantastic.
AmandaYou do too. No, it's it's cute. It's it's it shows we're human. You know, I I in particular need to be relatable. Why you in particular? Well, because I feel like my hatred of Kate has probably separated me from some people. So, you know, look at us, we're funny and human.
KipYeah, but at least you have something. Yeah, you have an identity. So does Teresa. I just sit here hating Michael. You well, you hate Michael, you do your stream of consciousness, your character rankings, character rankings. You have so many things. You're very related.
AmandaYou've got lots of nothing. You made our into the intro. That's rude.
KipRelatable. Yeah, anyway. You made us human.
AmandaYou have things. You do all of our triviaans. Yeah, you're our you're a numbers guy. And our technical.
KipYou're the numbers.
AmandaYou love Jack.
KipI do love Jack.
AmandaThat has to be a pretty unpopular opinion, right? I think it's pretty popular. No, I think it's pretty popular.
KipA lot of people love Jack.
AmandaWhat is it? I Jack Lover 92. I just, you guys, I know we're obviously going to talk about the episode because that's why we're here, but just what we're talking about, everyone's love of Jack. That first scene where he's like walking by Kate and they're just like smiling at each other. I'm like, this was clearly for all the Jack lovers in the world. Smash, just uh flash that beautiful smile.
KipOh, it was lovely.
AmandaOh, he's a he's beautiful. He's a specimen, that's for sure.
KipHe's gorgeous. So welcome everybody again to Let's Get Lost. I'm I never do the intros, so I'm I'm a little rusty on the intros. I told you I do. Manda does most of them. Teresa does the odd one.
AmandaI only do them because we can force Teresa to do the synopsis.
KipI'm making a joke because Teresa thinks she does so many intros.
TheresaI think I've done at least four this season. No. No, there's absolutely no way.
AmandaYou know what? When we you know what when we edit, yeah, we'll see. We'll see. So we're okay. We're sorry, we're we're into episode nine. Did you finish the intro?
KipYes, let's move on. What are we what are we going to talk about?
AmandaNo, I'm not. Sorry. Guys, I'm not even getting to that. Oh, but I wanted to just shit on Teresa a little bit more. So we're about to talk about episode nine. Okay. Which means we've talked about eight episodes. Oh, so I think I've done the intro on four of them.
TheresaI think you've done half seasons. I've done maybe three.
KipThere's you've done two.
TheresaI feel like I thought about this more than three times. And then you've probably won some of those fights. Yeah. I don't think so. I never win.
AmandaI just think it's so you guys are such good co-hosts and friends because like you thought I was just trying to get to the episode and you all just let me like steamroll you. But really, it was just to that's
Episode Setup And Quick Synopsis
Amandavery cute. Okay, so episode nine, The Shape of Things to Come, written by Brian K. Vaughn and Drew Godard, directed by the one and only Jack Bender, which obviously because this is such a good episode. Yeah. Um, after receiving the cryptic message 14J, Locke's camp comes under attack. Ben tries to turn the tables against their attackers, but suffers a shocking tragedy. Jack makes a grisly discovery when a body washes ashore and orders Faraday to contact the freighter. In a flash forward, Ben travels to Iraq and makes a new business partner.
KipUm, there was something I was gonna say. We recently saw something, and Drew Goddard was the writer and or director. What was that?
TheresaI think we like No, that sounds familiar.
KipBecause Teresa, I was like, that sounds familiar. And you're like lost, he's the lost guy. What was that?
AmandaLooking it up. You guys see if you can beat me.
KipUm, okay, what it was in a theater, right? Because we I swear we were sitting in a movie theater. We were. So what have we seen?
TheresaWe saw disclosure day.
KipOh, disclosure day.
AmandaWasn't disclosure day, though, was it?
KipWell, well, that was Steven picking it up.
TheresaI mean, the only other thing I feel like we've seen in theaters recently together is Wuthering Heights.
KipIt certainly wasn't Wuthering Heights.
TheresaAnd I don't think it's that. But he didn't direct. No, no, no.
KipNo, no, it's right. Yeah, yeah. I think maybe he was a writing credit on disclosure day.
AmandaBecause he also directs, I think, too. Maybe. I don't know. Let me see here. Your internet hates me.
TheresaOkay, well, we'll I'll just it's a race. And go.
AmandaI'm losing. As I lose most races.
KipHe's an American filmmaker. Oh, no. Oh, I know what it was. Project Hail Mary.
AmandaOh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Which we have also seen together recently. So we've been really killing it. As if you remembered Withering Heights before you remembered Rocky.
KipYeah. Project Hail Mary was.
AmandaAnd he was a co-writer or screenplay?
KipUh, I don't know. I just saw him his name pop up with it.
AmandaWell, good for him. He said Project Hail Mary was fantastic. He's had quite the career. Like a lot of these guys and fem everyone have had good careers after this. Yeah.
KipOh, right. We did the synopsis already. Uh, we've had a bit of a little break between recordings.
AmandaI think we now do. Teresa's.
KipNo, it's the trivia. No, we got we gotta wait. You need to be done.
TheresaNo, we're keeping it. You guys, either we're keeping the intro, we're keeping your powers. Oh man. Sorry, Kim. That's okay.
KipSo
Trivia Corner HG Wells And More
Kipthe shape of things to come. IMDB, nine out of ten. Oh yeah, baby. Viewers, 14 million. Up from last week's. A little bit of a hook. And Sawyer's nickname count.
AmandaWe had two today.
KipIt's been a while since we've had some nicknames from Sawyer.
AmandaChicken Little.
KipAnd he's ref reference or referring to.
AmandaI don't know. I remember Chicken Little in relation to Chicken.
KipI can't believe I'm blanking on her name.
AmandaClaire?
KipNo.
AmandaOh, Alex?
KipNo, Alex's mother. He's referring to Daniel Rousseau. Calls her Frenchie. Oh, okay. Better go get Frenchie and the kids. Oh yeah. Right. Awkward. And we're on day 97 on the island. Hold on. Getting up there. Alright. I have two tribute questions for you today, okay? The shape of things to come is one of a few episodes to contain footage filmed outside of Hawaii, with the scene in which Ben confronts Woodmore actually being filmed in London. Because actor Alan Dale was unable to fly to Hawaii as he had been appearing in a production of Witch Play.
AmandaI don't know plays very well. I only know Broadway musicals. Is it a musical?
KipI think so. Oh I think it was also on Broadway, but I think it started in London's West. That might give you a hint. Comedy?
AmandaComedy? From around 2000, I guess nine. 2008, 2009. Yeah, 2008. 2008, probably.
KipUm, okay. No. Spam a lot.
AmandaOh cute. Okay. That's the Monty Python people.
KipOkay. Uh question number two. The title is derived from a nineteen thirty-three science fiction novel of the same name by this author, widely known as the architectural grandfather of modern science fiction.
AmandaIs it H.P. Lovecraft?
KipNo, but you got the first initial right.
AmandaH. G. Wells.
KipThat's right.
AmandaThat's what I meant. Don't tell anyone. Awkward. What is H.P.
KipLovecraft?
AmandaI mean, he does like also Is he really an author? Yes.
TheresaIt kind of feels like a fictional authority. You think I made that up?
AmandaHP is like a sauce.
KipHG Love.
AmandaSo you guys think HP Lovecraft is more fake than HG Wells?
KipNo, no, I know HG Wells is real. But what? But because HP Lovecraft. Like I've heard it before. Yeah. But like I I feel like it's like a fictional author.
AmandaNo, I think he's real.
TheresaNo, he's an author.
AmandaBut he does like more, I think, like I think he also does like sci-fi. I'm pulling up the wiki. I'm just saying.
TheresaIt's taking a hot minute, though.
AmandaThis is not fair because they ruined it by having the same initial. Very confusing.
KipI wonder what the H's stand for.
TheresaOkay, well, Howard Phillips Lovecraft.
KipHoward Phillips. Howard.
TheresaUm apparently he created the Chahulu? Cthulhu.
KipHow does it say Cthulhu?
TheresaNo, it's uh Chahu.
AmandaI know what you're saying. Cthulhu, Cthulhu. I think it's Cthulhu, or Cthulhu? Cthulhu. That's a sci-fi thing. He created the Cthulhu Mythos. Yeah.
KipSo it is sci-fi. You're close.
AmandaI just I'm maybe off on the years. Okay.
KipI feel like Lovecraft's gotta be pri pre-Wells. Okay, okay.
TheresaOkay, so Lovecraft was born in 19 or 1890.
KipOh, so no.
Theresa1890. Um HD Wells' at the same time.
KipHD Wells then is pre-Lovecraft.
TheresaBorn in 1866.
KipYeah before Kina Canada's Confederation.
AmandaWow.
TheresaThese this they don't pick good photos. Well, they were born in the 1800s. How many photos do you think they have?
AmandaWell, it just like can't exactly go to the Google Images archive.
TheresaOkay, so like this is a lovely jovial photo of him, right? He looks very happy. And then this, oh, sorry, I just tapped the thing. This is what they put on the wiki. Like he just looks like kind of mad.
AmandaBut that might be a choice. Like, first of all, Wiki always has terrible photos of people. Yeah. Oh, he looks happy.
TheresaHe looks fine there. He doesn't look happy. What joy do you no? I don't know.
KipUm anyway. Yeah, uh it's probably uh like intentional I'm he's a serious. All British.
TheresaI assume they're British. Herbert and Herbert. Herbert George Wells.
AmandaCute. Yeah.
TheresaOkay.
AmandaI've not read anything by either of those. Wait, have I? Is H. G. Wells the person who did War of the Worlds? Yes. I have read that. He did?
KipI'm pretty sure.
AmandaNo, oh yeah, yeah. 1898. Yeah.
KipWild.
AmandaSo I have read something by him. Oops, sorry, I forgot about you, sir. He won't mind. I have never read anything by H.P. Lovecraft, so that's very good.
KipYou haven't read the Cthulhu.
AmandaCthulhu. No, I don't think I will be picking this up anytime soon.
KipIsn't that about like a monster in the sea?
AmandaIt's about some sort of monster.
TheresaIsn't that what Cthulhu uh Cthulhu I can't. Cthulhu. Cthulhu is.
Theresa's Stream of Consciousness
TheresaAlright.
KipNow it is time for.
TheresaTeresa's stream of consciousness. Also. Luckily, we don't have fun word like hard words like Cthulhu. Season four. Episode nine. The shape of things to come. Oh, who's this now? Oh, Kate. Is this really necessary? What is she even doing? Why is she taking her shirt off? All weird. Um, does Jack's back hurt? What's up? Um, don't meds have to be at like a certain temp, not, you know, sweltering hot like this? Oh no, poor Jack, he's sick. Crackers, maybe saltines. Do you have Dharma saltines? I mean, I would be worried. I mean, I would be hella worried. Ha. Gut is sick. That's alright, I guess. Oh no, Kepasa. Bernard, what's happening? Who is that? Ew, he looks gray. Uh, sorry, who is that? Oh, they know who he is. Oh dear. Oh my god, is it the doctor? Is that what he looks like? Oh dang, his throat be slit. Um, oh my god, are they playing a game? It feels like they're playing a game because they're talking to each other kind of intense. Is it risk? Is this what risk looks like? Maybe? I don't know. Oh dear, the folks got Alex. Who are they? I mean, she's scared. Stop being so mean to her. Oh, they're at that thingy that does the thingy with the with the st sound waves or whatever. Uh whoa there, easy. Wait, what's happening? What did the army get there? What's happening? Um, do phones ring on the island? What's 14J? I forgot that Ben's just chilling like a villain. Now he's just playing piano. Oh no, Ben looks unhappy. Uh what the fuck? He's just got a shotgun? Did we not check his place first? Who's here? Who's happening? What other house? Benjamin, what's going on? Oh, is this a Ben flashback? Wait, what's up? He's in the desert? But like in a parka. Is he not gonna die of like heat exhaustion? Seriously, how is he not sweating profusely right now? Wait, what's that? Ben can fight? Uh, that makes him even scarier. Wait, where'd the other horse go? Um, are we gonna grab everyone else? Um, why does John have to live? Oh god. Oh, Daniel, what when is a relative term? Why? Oh, Bernard is a smarticle particle. Wait, seriously, what's happening at the barracks though? Wait, why do they have the baby? Where's Claire? Oh my god, now they're shooting everyone. Wait, what's happening right now? Do we not care about the other people at the barracks or just our immediate crew? Um, who are you shooting at, Sawyer? Can y do you see them? Um, I'm sorry, is that like a grenade launcher? Um, was Claire inside? Wait, how did Ben walk from the desert to a city? Isn't that far? Where does Parka go? Benjamin's scary. God, he's so sketchy. Wait, who's Saeed's wife? Why do they have to go together? Uh Sawyer, be careful. Oh my god, is that Claire? Is she okay? Oh my god, Hurley's such a darling, I can't. Wait, why don't we just give Ben up? Oh my god, the fucking doorbell, I can't. Uh, what the heck? This is awful. Wait, who is they? Isn't that Nadia? Did Nadia die? Wait, we're in Iraq now? Seriously. Seriously, how are you traveling this much? Um, what's he doing? Where do you all get all this stuff? Who's that guy he's taking pictures of? Wait, isn't that Said? Oh my god, Said's got spider senses. Oh, Said, goddamn. Wait, Nadia's his wife? When was she murdered? Why does Ben care? Okay, so it's not a flashback, it's the front ways. Um, okay, yeah, we all remember C debs. Um You mean a man at her procession because it's still going on, right? He just left. Um, I feel like I don't know my city well enough to know how far things are from each other. Like, how does he know it's three blocks away from where Nadia died, but okay, whatever. Oh, it's the boat people. Oh god. Ben's kryptonite, Alex. Oh, now he's chatting. Oh, I knew Kimi was SCSI. He's hot from the neck down, but SCSI. Now he's not so cute. East window. I mean, I feel like everybody knows where East is a little too easily. I'd have to do that whole never eat soggy wieners thing to figure out where I'm supposed to be looking. Wow, Ben's got a great memory, though I'm jealous. Um, what happened? Oh, poor Alex. Poor thing. This is so scary. This is messed up. Ben, what are you gonna do? Ben? Ben. He's uh oh, he's quick with a counter, but that's not a good counter offer. Um, this is awful. Uh Ben, what the fuck? Ben? I don't really think this is gonna work, Ben G. Ben, well, Ben, that didn't fucking work. What the fuck? Is that real? God, Ben is gonna kill them. Wait, what rules? Um, I feel like Ben's even more terrifying now. What the hell is happening? Okay, I want this house though, but also no, I don't. What house am I talking about?
KipBen's house.
TheresaYeah, Ben's house, yeah, you're right. Ben's house. Oh, the slow controlled sippin'. Scary. Uh Ben, I feel like you're not so slick here. You seem a little frantic, like not very stealthy. He definitely knows you're following him, and I called it. Uh Said, were you supposed to do that? Said, you gotta settle down, bro. Benny does have a heart. But what is this war though? I'm sorry. Oh, that's the change in the rules. Wait, what about Shannon, Said? What about Shannon? Oh, I see. So this is how they end up in cahoots. A cahootin. Oh, it was Benny's plan though. What the fuck, Ben? What's happening, right? It's nighttime now? My god, I forgot about this thing. The smoke monster. Wait, is it a million miles long? Seriously, is it infinite? Wait, did he summon the monster? Wait, why are we not running? My god, does the smoke monster have hands? Um, Ben didn't give the order? Oh, Benny, is that real? Are you really? Oh, Ben Ben? Yeah, you are. You do kind of somewhat a little bit have a soul. Oh, this is fucked up. Oh, goddamn. It's uh C Debs. Benny's gonna find you. Um, does anyone know if what Daniel is what if what they're tapping is and what Daniel is actually saying is right? Oh, what the heck, Bernard for the win. Wait, what is happening? Why did Daniel lie? What's happening here? Uh Daniel. Oh, Jack looks like he's gonna cry. Or pass out. I'm not sure. He okay? Oh, okay there, Ben. Good question, Sawyer. Who the fuck's Jacob? Um, where's Hurley gonna go? Okay, so they're all going. Wait, what the fuck, John? Oh my god, it's a standoff. Hurley, why? Oh, Hurley's the realist. What a sweetheart. Sawyer is fantastic in this episode. You know, I thought we needed Hurley to find the cabin, so why are we following Ben? My god, another city for old Benny boy. He's probably got crazy airline points. Um, what's in your hand, Ben? Pennhouse, who lives there? Is it C Dub? Oh my god, is he gonna kill someone? Ew, he's just in someone's room? Weird. Oh, it is C Dub. Wait, what's happening right now? But nightnaires. Oh what? Why is Ben just staring at him? Why can't you do that? I don't get it. Oh my god, is Charlie Oh my god, not Charlie. Is all C Dub pulling a Benny? Wait. What's this relationship? An eye for an eye. I think he's gonna do it. But what's Des gonna do? Um Ben never blinks and it's terrifying. Wait, are the rules like don't kill my daughter? Why why would he find her? Why was it his? Seriously, what is with these two? The end. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AmandaYeah. So this is a rough episode, and uh Kib and I knew
Why This Story Moves So Fast
Amandawhat was coming and you had forgotten.
KipAlso uh they're called uh flash forwards, not the front ways.
AmandaI couldn't remember frontways. Oh my goodness. The front way. They went the front way or the back way. Couldn't remember. That's very funny. Yeah, this is uh rough one. This I actually cried twice in this episode. I I really cried when she got killed. Yeah, and then I did cry when Ben was over her body.
KipNo, I did not cry in this one.
AmandaI also thought that there was more of a buildup to it. Like in my memory, there was a lot more between Ben and Kimi before this is high octane, baby. Yeah.
KipSo do you want to know why I wrote high octane? Super high octane.
AmandaI was gonna say, you didn't write high high octane, you wrote super high octane.
KipBecause this was the first one they made or that premiered after the strike. So they used it as like the uh or the first one they wrote after the strike. And they were condensing everything because there were supposed to be a few more episodes this season. So their quote was we are going into super high octane storytelling, and it kind of makes sense when you think about like even the the death of um Rousseau last week, it's just like boom, boom, boom. Like there's no build-up. No, no, I mean there is, but it's like even with Alex, it was just like boom, done, and then suddenly like smoke monster's there, they're running away, they're splitting up, like it is very fast-paced. A lot happens in this episode, this is a very good episode, and a lot happens, and yeah, like even so you're and then leaving now, like yeah, it's because like I mean, you're right, you would think usually there would be a bit more buildup to an event at a moment, like Alex being killed, but it's just like countdown bang. Yeah, that was wild.
AmandaYeah, yeah, it was crazy. So let's start at the beginning, at the very beginning was uh doing a sponge bath. Is that what she was doing? I think so.
KipYeah, yeah.
AmandaI mean, I mean, I'm sure it was also just to be somewhat like flirty and tantalizing to the audience. I know I hated that word, but I don't know what that was to say. Like it's supposed to get the crowd going. I don't know. I don't like it. But it was like, I agree, it was kind of weird. She just like has one yeah, I feel I have so much like retrospective respect and compassion for Evangeline Lily in this role. Like with everything they put her through to Yeah, pretty objectified.
TheresaThere was no need for that. Like they could just stare they've stared at each other over serial.
AmandaOr she'd be watching her face or You know, her hands or like cleaning the fish or something. If they should be doing anything longingly, stare at each other from a distance.
TheresaBut but it had to be that like if you're gonna take a sponge bath, you're not doing it like five feet from the medical tent, like that makes no sense.
KipOr you know, you might go in the ocean, yeah.
AmandaOr like away from the others. But I will say, Matthew Fox, and I know we've obviously it's not like our opinion on the show is that Matthew Fox isn't a good actor, but I I have to say he is a very good actor because his little subtle, like you can tell he's not feeling well, but it's not like super overt, like just kind of how he like kind of put his hand like slightly on his back for like a half a second. Like you can tell he's going into that cat that because he's not feeling well, and but it's not like over like oh my heart, you know what I mean, or like like grabbing at a stomach or something, right? Like it's very he's he's actually very nuanced, yeah.
KipNo, he is really good, you know.
AmandaAnd for someone coming from like his his previous biggest role being like a teen drama, like that those are often overacted and stuff, but he's he's quite good. I like that scene.
KipI am sad he didn't really go on to anything else after this of note. No, he didn't, like he really did fizzle, and I think that was a lot of his own we've talked about before his own choices, but also that it is sad because he is really good.
AmandaHe's really good, he's really good. And he probably could he, you know, he could still have a like he's been trying in in recent years, but I could see him in like even another 10 years coming with like something like a Yellowstone or something like that. That's just like an older role, yeah. But yeah, he's good. So they he's he's uh popping some pills, yeah. Because he has a stomach bug, as he says, but we see by the end of the episode that that's not
Opening Scenes Jack Is Not Okay
Amandathe whole story, he's downplaying it. Yeah, he ain't right.
KipSo and then uh there's some barking and some yelling and some commotion on the beach. We see a body, and it's the dock, the doc from the freighter, yeah.
AmandaYeah, and we it's so hard. The last time we saw the doctor, he was alive and well, yeah. So that was shocking to us. Yeah, yeah. And so, and we have we have not seen Saeed and Desmond in them for a bit, so we don't actually know what's going on.
KipNo, so it's Ben. Oh no, then we have the game.
TheresaThe game. Very cute. We're playing risk. Yeah, that is risk, yeah. Okay, I've never played risk, I have no idea.
KipI don't think Australia is the key to winning risk, though, as Hurley says. I mean, I've haven't played risk in years, but I I don't think Australia is the most important.
AmandaI've never played, I don't know, I've never played it either.
KipI just recognize it from I feel like Northern Africa plays a big role in the game of risk. Maybe I just that's why I always lost.
AmandaIt actually was that Australia was the key. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
KipAnyway, they're playing risk, and it's very funny.
AmandaIt's very cute to just watch them try to have these like moments of normalcy because the days are still long.
KipYeah, right. Exactly.
AmandaThey've got to do stuff to like make their mind, they can't just be staring outside the windows with like well, and there can't be adventures 100% of the time.
KipLike there is downtime.
AmandaYeah, and I think it's super cute that Hurley has Aaron.
KipYeah.
AmandaUm, they clearly all like race that baby together, but you do takes a video. It does when I'm watching them do stuff like that. And I again, it's a little bit hard for me because I know everything that happens after, so I I have to remember like what I'm remembering has already happened versus what I'm remembering from what I've seen before. But what are they supposed to be doing right now?
KipWhat do you mean?
AmandaLike Locke and and then they're just building a life there. Like, what do they think? Like what I know what Locke is like, I'm so special, and I will have to talk about that later because I am so fucking overlocked. Same. Um, but what do like Hurley and Claire and the three people who are now dead, um, and whoever else might be there? What do they think they're doing?
KipI think they're yeah, I think they just either think they're waiting out the storm of whatever this freighter is, yeah, and they're hiding, and they're gonna make use of whatever this village is. And some of them probably do think. Like, I think Sawyer is ready to honestly settle down, and this is part of that.
AmandaYeah, I think it's kind of an interesting hosting games night.
KipYeah, it's like kind of an interesting dichotomy from the beach people who are like still kind of primitive in their living, like the the sponge bath in a tarp tent, you know, the pantry on bamboo shelves, like very Gilligan's Island, compared to these folks who are just hosting game night.
AmandaAnd yeah, and maybe that is what the you know, maybe we'll give them more credit than they maybe deserve and say that was what they're trying to show us.
KipWell they could have shown that in any many other ways, but it's right, it's a big difference, right? Yeah, so and then you see at the end then the splitting, like even though although I guess Smokey came in and kind of destroyed everything, but they decide to go back to
Risk Night And Barracks Normalcy
Kipthe beach, at least some of them. So but and then they get a phone call, and I think all you need is just a couple lines. It doesn't need to be connected to any outside world for a phone to work, like old school phones, it was just a line to a line.
AmandaYeah, like it's like that's why they had those switchboards back in the day where they would just unplug something and put it into something else, and that's how they connected to calls, right?
KipSo yeah, kind of easy to have a phone ringing and it's a code or G.
AmandaBut there's I mean, that's smart, like they they really are quite sophisticated, yeah. Right, and I feel like every single episode we almost find out they're more sophisticated.
KipI know, yeah, yeah, it's very, it's a very cool system. And then they freak out, go get Ben, who's playing the piano and has shotguns in his piano bench. But funny thing about Ben playing the piano, so Michael Emerson said, kind of in relation to this high octane, like new momentum, is they were like, Okay, get ready to you're gonna be doing a lot more. We're kind of condensing everything. And he kind of jokes, he's like, Yeah, and then one episode I suddenly have to learn how to ride a horse, play a piano, and speak foreign languages all for one episode. And it's like kind of crazy.
AmandaYeah, yeah. That's actually probably not overly fun for the actor.
KipBecause it's quick, like they film these in a matter of weeks, it's not like you have like a movie where you're doing it over months and months.
AmandaYeah, and he did carry the episode, obviously, right, in lots of ways. So, and then it's also like a like it was heavy, right? For him. So this probably was a really I wonder if this is one of the ones he got nominated for because he's very good and he does have to do all those things.
KipYeah, um, so they're preparing for war at this point, which is it seems like it anyway, and I I don't quite remember if we get the flash the the front ways first, or if they start preparing for the war.
AmandaI think kind of around the same time.
KipSo then we see that he's in uh Tunisia and his Darka, as they called it, because it was a Dharma Parka.
TheresaOh, cute a darka. I was like, what's a darka?
KipAnd then he didn't walk to the city, trees, he rode a horse.
TheresaOh yeah, yeah, you're right, you're right, he did. And he stole after killing the people that yeah, like yeah, I always thought like Ben's like most dangerous thing was that he was like brilliant. But like now he can also like defend himself. I know that's terrifying. It was shocking.
KipWe've seen him use that stick before when he beat the shit out of Sawyer in season two in the cage or season three, whatever that was. Uh so we've seen him use his like beating stick before, but not okay.
AmandaI hear where we're going.
KipBut we but yeah, like to like flip a guy around and start shooting. Like that wasn't guns pointed at him, and I was like, okay, like he's gonna.
AmandaYeah, it's one thing to kind of use a like stick to beat someone in a cage, you know. Been there, right? But you can't like that's very different than like that like kind of fucking MacGyver shit he's like pulling out there. Like it was actually very impressive, and I agree with you, Teresa. It's not right for him to both be that like menacing and also that physically intimidating as well.
TheresaThey clearly do some kind of like training on like an Otherton because like Juliet, like mild-mannered, like you know, nerd fertility doctor, and then all of a sudden it's like she's like flipping people and like true, and it's like, where did you learn that?
AmandaHer gun skills are quite impressive as well.
KipYeah, they must have combat training.
TheresaI probably I mean, I guess what else do they do other than book club and yeah, yeah.
AmandaSo he's in Tunisia, and is he
14J Message And Preparing For Attack
Amandawhy is he in Tunisia?
KipBecause he wants to send a message or find Charles Whidmore. I don't and we do find out how he gets to Tunisia and why he's in Tunisia. Okay, because if I um do you we do we will find out why why he landed there in the middle of that desert. Okay.
AmandaUm he's in Tunisia when he sees the funeral.
KipThe footage or the footage of the yeah, so then he goes to Iraq because he sees that while he's in Tunisia. It's like a happy coincidence.
AmandaI was gonna say, like, my understanding of it was always like he wasn't necessarily looking for Saeed at this time, but that seeing what was happening, he immediately, because he's again pivoted so manipulative and so brilliant, he immediately pivoted to oh, I can take advantage of this exactly situation, right?
KipAnd then when he was scoping it out, he saw Woodmore's guy, and then that's and then I think his intent wasn't to kill him or have Said kill him. I think it was to send a message back to Charles and then again had to pivot when Saeed went bananas.
AmandaAnd he should have known Said was gonna like go off the rails. Like Saeed is so unpredictable at this point, it's very sad. Can we talk about Saeed? Oh, well, I want to talk about Saeed, but I'm worried that it's gonna ruin the whole finale because I should I just save this for when we eventually talk about the finale because I'm pissed at Said.
TheresaYeah, no, I I know where you're going.
KipYeah, I I am too, but can I can I just say I think this is from a non-like lore perspective, when the writers started to shit the bed with Saeed.
AmandaRight.
KipLike I think they really, and I don't think his story really gets much better throughout the rest of the series. And this was sort of like when he's so yeah, distraught over Nadia, and fine, she was important to him before, but then like, yeah, what about Shannon? You just had this whole thing about Shannon who was the love of your life on the island. And what do you mean, eight years looking for your wife? Because, like, how long have you been off this island? Are you counting the years before? And now, like, you found her, and like we do find out what happened to Nadia. Okay, like we'd see them together later in this season or next. I think it's this one, but like, so we do see like his life with Nadia, but it's not what we think, of course. It's just it felt so weird, and just like he's so like he's so like he's not calculated, he's not like really acting smartly like the the Saeed we've known come to know over the last few seasons. Like he's so erratic and just like emotional, and just I don't know, it didn't feel like the Saeed from seasons one through C.
AmandaNo, I I couldn't agree more, and I I also agree that it does not get better for him, and it's so sad because Saeed was such a good character in seasons one to now, yeah, and I would think probably a bit of a revelatory character for TV at that time, yeah. Um, to have, you know, someone with his background be so heroic. Yeah. And and so that's what really pisses me off about it is like you took this amazing character played by like a very talented actor with a very distinguishable background, put him on primetime television, gave him this like really great like protagonist storyline, and then you decided what you just became to just make him Ben's pawn.
KipYeah, exactly.
AmandaAnd there are two things about it that the the quote was I spent eight years looking for the woman I love, and then I married her and bur and then buried her yesterday. And it's like it does seem like diminutive about his relationship with Shannon. Yeah, it doesn't seem entirely like honest. And it's one thing to be like, yeah, I had to move forward with my life, and like that was my you know person before that, so it makes sense to go back, right? But be more honest about
Ben’s Flash Forward Tunisia To Iraq
Amandawhat it was, and then sometimes I do also appreciate that when you lose someone, you have rose-colored glasses towards it, right? But there wasn't even really anything to hint that that was what it was, no, it wasn't that deep. And then yeah, to be like, okay, so then he killed like we're kind of jumping around, but he he ends up killing that guy because Ben convinces him very easily. Yeah, like when do since when do you trust Ben that much? Yeah, and since when do you do what Ben wants you to do? Yeah. And then on top of that, you want to just follow him now because you have no life, like that would not be what you would do.
KipExactly.
AmandaYou had if you want to talk about your life before this, you had a million other things, a million other connections, a million other things, even if you want to be a jerk and run around and kill people, you had a life you could do that in. You do need to latch on to the person who made your life miserable for the last year.
KipIt didn't, it didn't add up. And I yeah, I I just think it was just kind of shoddy writing. Uh, and they just I don't think they knew what to do with Said.
AmandaLike it would have made more sense if Ben was trying to convince him that there were more people involved and it was like a big conspiracy or something, then but I guess that is kind of what he does, right? In a way, because he's like Charles Whidmore is responsible, yeah, and I'm going after Charles.
KipSo I guess that is kind of what he does, but it's still pretty like I don't know, all of Ben or all of Said and Shannon's relationship. We kept asking, what about Nadia? You know, forgot about her pretty quick. Now it's like, what about Shannon? Forgot about her pretty quick. Like, what's going on, Said?
AmandaYeah, well, and then in the end we find out, right? So it's like it's it was very weird. And it, and like I said, it sucks. He's a because Naveen Andrews is a phenomenal actor. And I'm I'm it must be so frustrating as an actor.
KipI think he's expressed sort of disappointment with the character of Said and and sort of the the outcome of him. Um, or maybe just sort of like loss to him was just a job, and maybe it's indifference. I can't quite remember what it was, but I know he's sort of not super keen, and I can't remember if it's that he was disappointed or just that he was like, whatever, it was a job, and I got paid to do it. So that don't really give a shit.
AmandaYeah, I can't remember. I was reading something the other day about a totally different, I can't remember what it was, if it was a show, which show, but someone was kind of asking this actor. They were on a podcast saying, like, kind of like when people come up to you and like ask you about like and they're upset with things like what do you say? And they're like, I tell them I'm not the writer. Yeah. Right? Like I get provided a script. And yes, sometimes maybe they can like say, I don't know, and push back a little bit, but for the most part, like then you're just doing a job, right?
KipYeah, uh maybe like a show where it's seasons long and the actor also kind of becomes like a producer. That's different. Sometimes that happens and then they do have a bit more say, or this one, I don't think so.
AmandaNo, and not for like maybe Matthew Fox would have had maybe that that's the thing is like if you're first on the call sheet and like the show kind of starts and ends with you, then maybe you have a bit more.
KipBut also based on everything we know about the writer's room, I kind of doubt they listen to anybody else.
AmandaIt sounds like they don't even listen to each other at some point.
KipNo, exactly. So yeah, so yeah, so Said storyline is kind of meh and ain't gonna get better. No, so it's sort of a sad, sad little pivot for Saeed. Um, yeah, and Ben and Ben. Do you want to just do Ben's flash? Yeah, except for the last scene, we'll save till the end.
AmandaYeah, so he I mean, that is basically kind of I guess that is it, yeah. Yeah, because he's oh yeah, he's just on a mission now, right? Right, and and he's after Charles, and so he kind of is using Saeed to get to him because that at the end of the day, despite his ability to fight a little bit more than we thought, and despite his brilliance, Ben still often uses other people to do his dirty work.
KipHis manipulation is still his superpower, yeah.
AmandaSo he hasn't really gotten his hands that dirty.
KipNo, right? Killed a few uh horse riders in the desert.
AmandaYeah, that was so strange. Um but we can go back to what causes all of this, yeah, which is I think I really do think that that whole scenario, like I said in my mind it it lasted longer and it was talking about uh Alex and that scene is just brutal, you guys. I don't know. I can't talk about it.
KipI mean it was pretty like it was pretty intense.
Sayid's Turn And Writer Frustrations
KipYeah, brutal, I think is a good word. Because it it just was very like abrupt.
TheresaIt was very abrupt. I didn't expect it. Um obviously I don't remember a lot. Um so when that was like happening, I was like, oh okay, like Ben will talk his way out of this one. It's gonna be difficult. Um then no. No, no.
AmandaI laughed at your um stream of consciousness because I had the exact same thought when I was watching it when he's like, How about a counter proposal? And then didn't actually give a counter proposal.
KipWhat the hell was that?
AmandaI actually thought he was gonna try to at least be like, get to the helicopter walkway and I'll give you like five million dollars or I'll like whatever. But he just was essentially trying to intimidate him. I don't even know what that was.
TheresaYeah, but it didn't even like sound intimidating. No, like it was just kind of like you're gonna go. It sounded desperate, yeah.
KipSo do you think Ben lost? I mean, clearly did lose control there, but why? Like, why because Ben is always in control. Ben always knows how to get out of a situation, he always knows how to manipulate something. How come he couldn't do that then?
AmandaWell, I think that it's because he it's the exact opposite of everything he said, right? Which is that I think Alex probably was the only thing that Alex and Juliet are probably the only two things that mean anything to him on that island. And I do think that he really loved Alex in in a way that Ben is capable of loving, and so he probably was just like thrown off.
TheresaYeah, I think it was like a lapse in like judgment and like a little bit of hubris um kind of combined. Because I feel like if he had done that to like John or something, he probably could have gotten away with it. In this case, like Kimi literally does not give a fuck. Um and I think that he does ultimately, like Amanda was saying, like, really love Alex in his own like kind of twisted way. And he did steal a baby and then raise her as his own. So like there's gotta be like an attachment there. Um, and I feel like that's that's kind of what happened.
KipIt's so weird when you put it that way. Like, yeah, he did steal Alex.
TheresaYeah, he says it out. He's like, I stole a baby from a crazy woman. Like, do you you want to talk about crazy woman?
KipYou sound crazy, but like I get that he was trying, I think anyway, that he was trying to throw Kimi off. I don't care. I don't have any feelings for that girl.
AmandaThat was rough.
KipWhy would you if you if you did have love for Alex, why would you want even potentially that to be the last thing she hears?
AmandaI and I actually that's the part I find. I wrote that in my notes. I'm like, one of the things that in that scene that makes me first of all, Tanya R Raymond is like very good in it. She's she's it's very hard to watch her. She's so scared and so upset, and she plays it very well. Like she seems very complete.
KipYeah, ooh.
AmandaShe, I I know she never I got shivers just thinking about it, but you know, for her to be experiencing that, and then even though I'm sure she knows what he's doing on some level, when you're that upset and that scared, you're not thinking things through either. So the last thing she heard was him saying that she was a pawn and that he didn't care about her.
KipYeah, yeah, brutal.
AmandaAnd then that's the last thing he ever said to her. And then he, like, you know, he talks about it later, but it is his fault. She's dead. It is, he is responsible for it. All of this is his fault.
KipBut yet he seems to not really want to take any accountability for it. Like he's immediately blaming Charles Woodmore, says some quipo, he changed the rules. And it's like, that's why Alex is dead. It's like, no.
AmandaAnd and this whole idea, like, I know what you're saying about how he thought he could get, like, you know, there was a level of control. But he also starts off the interaction by essentially saying he knows what Kimi's like. And everything he says about him, and this allusion to like, well, you worked in Uganda, so I know exactly what you're like, is I think suggesting that he's crazy and that unpredictable and that he'll do this.
KipExactly. So So why is he rolling the dice?
AmandaBecause I, you know, and that I think this is one of the hardest Ben storylines when it comes to trying to actually explain his personality. I truly do think that he will sacrifice anyone for. Hits like when he says, like when they're having that conversation, do I think he could have done more? Do I think he could have tried to manipulate it better? Do I think he could have gotten through totally if he wasn't emotionally like damaged and invested in what was happening? Like, I do think I think all of this can be true at the same time. He really loves her in a way he can. He was trying to manipulate the situation, but he just wasn't able to because he was letting his emotions get in the way. Yeah. But the third thing that is also true is that when he said, I'm not coming out of this house, he meant that.
KipYeah. Yeah. Yeah.
AmandaAnd so I think he like because he could have walked the second he saw her, he could have walked out the door.
KipExactly.
AmandaBut he wasn't going to do that. And he knows the kind of guy he was and he knows the situation they were in. And yes, he probably did think he could get in front of it to a degree. But I still think push, come to shove, that's the outcome Ben would be wanting.
KipYeah, I don't think he even would have changed it in retrospect. That's uh I think he might have maybe taken a different approach, but he never would have left the house. He never would have given himself.
AmandaHe would never have traded himself for Alex. No, no, no. He might have been more aggressive with Kimi. He might have tried to like use violence or stall or be more persuasive. But it I truly believe, and I know that some people in the world disagree with this based on some stuff that happens in season six, but I truly believe that he would never have traded his life for Alex's.
KipI agree. I agree as well.
AmandaThere's no one on this planet that Ben's willing to sacrifice himself for.
KipNo. And that's why I kind of like when Woodmore calls him out at the end. Yes. Like and just says, that's your own fault. Yeah. Don't try to blame me for that. Yeah.
TheresaHe's like, you're gonna come here play the victim.
KipExactly. Yeah. I was like, yeah, Woodmore, you're not wrong.
AmandaAnd let's be real, like let we can just jump to that scene now if we want.
KipOkay.
AmandaCharles Whidmore and Ben Linus oh both care more about an island than they do their children.
TheresaYeah. I don't know why.
AmandaLike, well, I mean, it's a pretty cool island.
TheresaIt is a pretty cool island. I get it to a degree, but like if I had, you know, raised children, I think I would probably love them more than an island, even though it was super cool.
KipI mean, there's people who choose their religion over their children. True. People who choose their partner over their culture. You know, like people get sucked into something and it becomes their entire world. And they are willing to do anything, even at the expense of other people, people they love.
AmandaThe cult's probably a good comparison because this idea of like thinking this greater power, this greater good, this greater purpose is calling to me. It has to be more important.
KipYeah, exactly.
AmandaBut you know, like I said, even at the end, Charles Woodmore seems more like he's like, I'm gonna get that island back one day. It's like he's just threatening your kid, and you're like, She's you know, I'm right, never gonna find her. Yeah, I'm like, why is he never gonna find like I think he'll find her. Well, I mean, that's the other thing. These men continue to underestimate each other.
KipYeah, exactly.
AmandaAnd I I know you have a note on it later about talking about their relationship, and I do want to talk about it more as just an entity separate from the scenes because it is strange.
KipYeah, Ben and Charles. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we can, yeah. We can go into it now if you want.
AmandaYeah. Might as well. What the fuck? That was the well, I didn't say they were articulate, I thought there was gonna be more, and then she was just what the fuck? No, I because like it's such a strange, like who's hurt you both?
KipWell, and that's the thing. Like, we do get yeah, background, um, which explains some things. I don't quite recall
Alex’s Death And Ben’s Accountability
Kipthe full background history. I can recall the Coles notes, but like I don't quite recall what would Lee. Oh yes, I do. Now it's coming back to me. Yeah. But like I got nothing. I don't know. It's honestly, if I'm remembering it correctly, like I don't know who is worse or better. And I think that's the whole thing of with loss. Sometimes we all lose. Yeah, loss is everything's gray, right?
AmandaWhat I love about the show though is there's these kind of continual, like kind of pair-ups of these like men at odds with each other. So like Jack and Locke are at odds with each other, Charles and Ben are at odds with each other. We're gonna see two more men that are at odds with each other. Oh, yeah. Um and this idea of just kind of like it's it's bigger than just two people, all of it, but it kind of always also always comes back to two people. And and this idea of like just people thinking what they believe in and what they think and what they need and what they want is more important than what the other person is. Yeah, exactly. Right. And it's very interesting because if you literally were to just watch what we just watched and then go back and watch the pilot right now, you would never think these were the same TV shows. No, and that is very like the crash on the island in season one to these two men in this old man's bedroom arguing about his daughter's gonna be killed next, is and about the island that they're trying to find. That's very cool.
KipYeah, it is neat.
AmandaAnd every once in a while I just remind myself that this is a very cool show, and we have come a long way. Like, you're never gonna find it. What do you mean? Why can't people not find this island?
KipAnd Woodmore's kind of like, yeah, you might be right, but I'm gonna try real hard. Like he even knows it's hard to find. Like, what is this place?
AmandaYeah, it's it's it's weird, but it's cool. Yeah, so who is fault is it that Alex died then, Kip? You think it's also Ben's?
KipI think it's Ben's, yeah. It was just like when I was watching this scene with Woodmore and him, I was just like, oh Ben, just like no accountability, just you didn't pull the trigger, but you were yeah, you were definitely the reason. Yeah. And I but I don't remember if we find out what the rule is that was changed. Like, yeah, was the rule just you cannot kill our daughters? Yeah, hands off my kids.
AmandaI I do wonder if it was something essentially along the lines of like A, we're we're not gonna kill each other or families, or if it was just specifically like we don't make it personal, or like something like that. Because I agree. I don't know if yeah, I don't know if we find out, but I wonder if it is just something along the lines of like no bloodshed between them, because it seemed like once Alex was killed, and we can kind of go back to what happens after that. First of all, Ben's face when she's killed. Oh, Michael Emerson. I know he's done enough to sustain himself and be a figure in Hollywood and TV and things like that, but sometimes I also think he hasn't been like such a good actor. He's amazing. Um but then he like leaves, right? And they're all kind of in shock, and he goes somewhere and we don't know where he's gone, and we don't know if he's coming back. And then eventually he comes back, and I remember Teresa being like, oh, he's back, okay. Um, and we find out that he went to summon, is that the right word? Yeah, yeah.
KipI think so. He called it in uh because the fence was down. Because the fence was down. But that's the thing, like they they used to say the fence kept it out, but then they must have this weird templish thing. And he did tell Russo and Alex and Carl to go to the temple, so get some sort of connection, but like this temply button he could press to call the smoke monster, and lo and behold, Smokey came calling.
AmandaYeah, but he he's also talking in that voice. He's just he's like and then it's like okay, I'm on my way.
KipCould you just wait a minute? I'm having lunch.
TheresaI'll come in a few hours.
AmandaYeah. But because that's what makes me think that just like maybe killing each other in general or killing their each other's people was like a rule because he seems like, okay, well, I guess the rules have changed, and then he goes to get the smoke monster to like kill them all. Like, why wasn't that what he was gonna just do? Right?
KipAlways Yeah, maybe, but then like Ben kills so many people. Yeah, it's hard to know.
AmandaIt just felt like what did he think was going to like when they first were surrounding him? Why didn't he just say, Oh, I'm just gonna go with the smoke monster to take care of this? Why wasn't it until Alex?
KipBecause he didn't know, and because yeah, he didn't know they had Alex, so why did he not just call the smoke monster?
AmandaYeah, so that's what makes me think like, or that it's like a really last resort type thing, because it's maybe not.
KipBecause maybe it's unpredictable, yeah.
AmandaBut I was just like, that was clearly a sign that he's like gone postal.
KipYes, exactly.
AmandaAnd it was freaky.
KipAnd yeah, that thing did have hands. It was weird, just grabbed that man.
TheresaYeah, I was like, oh, but also we just watched. We did not run.
KipYeah, I know.
TheresaThey just watched it and opened run when I tell you, they all run outside, watch the chaos. Yeah, it was confusing. He never actually tells him to run. No, and then they just scamper off and he's still standing there.
KipI'm like, Yeah, I'm like, why are you running towards it?
TheresaYeah, like also, have we have we told him which people to grab?
AmandaThat's what I mean. Like, yeah, clearly there's some sort of like Ben feels safe because he but then he was like run away from it.
KipYeah, because he kind of made it seem like you don't want to be anywhere near that thing. Yeah, like yes, but maybe Ben himself, but I don't even know.
TheresaIt was just it was just a very weird like moment in time where I was like it wasn't totally clear.
AmandaI'm like, but it's kind of nice to see it again. I forgot about it, honestly. Yeah, it's been a while. When it was shaking, that's not I didn't remember that's what happened, and I didn't even think that could be it at first.
KipI wonder if we have that no I we do.
TheresaThere it is. Yeah. See, I thought at first I when the things everything started shaking, I'm like, oh, there's a there's a other to self-destruct button. It's about to dig it out. Yeah, everybody get to scootin', and then that's not what happened. No smirky can't smoke monster.
AmandaWe forgot to mention that we lost three more islanders. Like they kept coming out, like that's just stupid.
TheresaDid we just talk about that for a second? So there's this code. Everyone gets Ben. Ben says, We're going to the other house. Sawyer's like, I gotta go get Claire. They barricade the house that they're in. Do we not care about anybody else that came here?
AmandaWell, Ben only cares about himself and Locke and Hurley because they need to find the cabinet.
TheresaAnd Sawyer only cares about Claire, but no one else.
KipAnd Sawyer very much cares about Hugo.
TheresaAnd and Hugh, but I mean, like, nobody else, no one was like, tell everybody to stay inside. It's only when they started coming out and getting like and actually at one point when they're walking, too.
AmandaThere's like piles, there's like someone walking the other way. They're not just like, hey, maybe get out of here. They're just like running by. And Miles, everyone forgot about Miles until he shows him at the door.
KipOr doorbell. But you know, the you know, the extra who like said his line, like, what's going on, or whatever? He's been a background actor in the show since season one. Really? Like, but just a background actor. Okay. Like that's what he wanted. And but then he literally they made him audition to do that line.
Widmore Versus Ben And The Rules
KipWhy? Like, literally, he's gonna be shot. Just let him say the line. Like, doesn't matter. Yeah, but they made him audition.
TheresaIf anything, just make sure that he can die properly. You know, that's more important than the line.
KipVery funny.
AmandaAnd if he can't, just cut away fast. Like, why are we auditioning?
KipSo they're culling the extras.
TheresaThey're calling the extras. They we've uh assassinated three.
KipThere are times where we've asked throughout the series, how long are these like random is going to be around? Well, now it's starting to be a little bit more than a little bit.
AmandaIt's like a reaping or whatever. Yeah, they're they're they're uh getting rid of some people to make it a little bit easier. Yeah, yeah.
TheresaSo they got rid of three. Yeah, that was they start shooting at Sawyer. Sawyer's just then uh someone grenade launches Claire's house.
KipShe's just lying under some rubble.
TheresaYeah, and I'm like, okay, that's and then they're like, don't let Sawyer in. And he's running with Claire and he's like, open the front door. And I was like, is there not a back door? Because you're telling me in your closet, you have an entire room that leads to whatever where you can also summon the smoke monster, but you have no back door. I mean, there are backdoors. I don't think they wanted him to come in that door either, though. I mean they're all barricaded. They only barricaded the front door.
AmandaAnd he said, open the front door.
TheresaHe could have just swung round. But then Hurley, sweet Hurley. Oh, Hurley, the best.
KipHe just because, like, really, what's the what good's a window against grenade launchers or bullets?
TheresaWell, exactly.
AmandaI think they've shown you that being in the house is not like you're not safe anywhere, but he just doesn't care. Anyway, after the smoke monster they're running, Ben's gonna go say goodbye to Alex. That was very sad as well. That was very sad. Like it's very clear he loved her. Like that is, like I said, but all things can be true when it comes to Ben. He selfish narcissists, manipulative, evil people still sometimes love people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's not a sign of his like endearing heart.
TheresaLike it's like a shred of humanity that was left.
KipYeah, yeah, yeah. No, for sure. Um, John Locke.
AmandaOh, okay. Can I just I forgot about him that he was a person that existed. Can I just tell you the thing that drove me the most insane about him in this episode? I'm certain you guys will agree. But there, it's I just hate him.
TheresaYeah, but remember the time where you like really were into him?
AmandaI no, I wasn't into him again. I want to make that very clear. Except I did have a moment today too where I was like, he's really kind of not that bad looking. It's very strange. Again, Amanda Burton. Wow. I know it's so strange. It's very strange. But I was looking at him and Ben. That's probably not a great comparison. I was like, in this scene, he's more attractive, I guess. But when because they are running back to the house together, and he says, You have to come with me, you have to live, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You're important. You have to survive this with me or whatever. And then John's like, okay. And then they're fucking barricading shit, and he's like, So why do I have to survive this then?
KipYou said I had to why? Why? Oh my god.
AmandaRead the fucking room.
KipThere's literally m like mercenaries outside.
AmandaBut of course, what is this another time ram maybe special? Exactly. Like, that's what he has to know in that moment.
KipOh, I know.
AmandaI'm so sick of like what what role what special role do I play here, Benjamin? Like, I hate him.
KipBut it's also like Ben also, again, using John like a fiddle, playing him like a fiddle, like I can get John now to do what I need because I'll give him this little nugget. And sure enough, he bites.
AmandaJust chomp chomp chomp. I fucking hate him. I really do.
TheresaVery literal.
KipYeah.
AmandaI can't.
KipAnd then he even like when they're in the woods after.
AmandaGod.
KipAnd he's just like, sorry about your daughter.
AmandaSo, like, where do we do what's the plan now? Like, oh my god. Yeah. I mean, I guess it was nice he said anything. It's more than I would have given him credit for.
KipAnd then there's like a little schism between the crew.
AmandaThat was sad. That was actually sad. Yeah. Too. Like it always sucks to see people. I find it sucks to see people who were aligned have such a dramatic. Like, I know Sawyer's a tough guy, and he's like, but can you imagine being having a gun pulled on you by someone you followed into this and trusted blindly?
KipYeah.
AmandaLike, you know, Sawyer still has a soul. Like these things are not fun. No. No. And like what that's the only way you can, you're so stuck on what you think you need to do because of this tiny, annoying rat man. Yes. And you will pull a gun on your friend. Who's had your back this whole time?
KipExactly. Yeah.
AmandaIt was just sickening.
KipIt was. Yeah. It was called awful.
AmandaYeah. But what was not sickening was Sawyer. Oh.
KipOh, I know.
AmandaAnd he was
Smoke Monster Summoned And Escape Chaos
Amandalike, We're leaving and he's coming with us. Yeah. And he was so adamant. I get shivers thinking about it.
KipLike he was such he's protecting Hurley at all costs.
TheresaHe was fantastic, this album.
KipYeah. So good. Peak peak.
AmandaAnd then to be like, and then Hurley having to be like, no, it's okay, I'll go. Because he just wants no one to get hurt. Exactly. And then Winswear is like, if you hurt even like one hair is curly.
KipOne curly hair on that guy's head.
AmandaI'll fucking kill you. He doesn't say fucking, obviously it's ABC, but if it was HBO, he would have said fucking. Yeah. And uh I mean, I will say John's very in character because I think even his response fair enough is like how he would respond. So it's interesting because I feel that the writers must be like given storyline priorities, or maybe there's different writers that are assigned to different like I don't know what the writer's name looked like, but John Locke is annoying as all hell, but he is very John Locke.
KipVery consistent. Yes.
AmandaAnd then you have the Said, like you have the John Locks and the Jackson that are super consistent. Then you have the Sawyer who has actually has great character growth.
TheresaMuch growth.
AmandaAnd then you have the Saeeds that like, and Claire is gonna be one too. And you know, a couple others that are just like I don't know.
KipSo no. Oh well, I've been for a treat.
TheresaOh no.
KipUm Jacob. They bring up Jacob a couple times, and I had to laugh when Sawyer said, Who the hell's Jacob? And I had a comment like, how many times does Sawyer say, Who the hell's blank? Because he says it quite a bit, actually. Who the hell's so-and-so?
TheresaYeah, yeah. And so Jacob, Jacob, Jacob.
KipSawyer's not familiar with Jacob, but Ben is taking um John Locke, and he needs Hurley to show them the way.
TheresaSo then why are we following Ben?
KipWell, I think I also picked up on that. I think, yeah, I thought that too, but at the same time, I think it's more like Ben's just gonna take them out of that general facility. Oh, okay, okay.
AmandaAnd then the closer they get to where they need to be, then Hurley is.
KipBecause you know the cabin moves, right? So it like, or we know the cabin moves, so it's like, yeah, Ben's gonna take them to an area, and then when Hurley's senses go off, they'll they'll follow him, kind of like a you know, a dog on the scent kind of thing.
TheresaYeah, okay.
KipSo you're just using Hurley.
TheresaYeah, because I was like, what is happening? Also, it's just it's so interesting, especially in this episode, to see that like Ben honestly has just been in control this whole time. Like, we're living in John Locke quote open uh open close quotes. John Locke's like otherton village. But like he he he's not the boss there. It's very clear, like we're we're still following Ben.
KipI know, yeah.
TheresaSomething something happens, we go to Ben. Like Ben's been in control this whole time.
AmandaYeah, I think that's why it's so sad. Because it's like Locke is this like man who this older man who clearly wants to like shut up, both of you.
KipOlder man is this man, this older man.
TheresaHe just looks so good today.
AmandaHe's just this man. He's an older man who clearly wants to be this like important, tough leader guy. But he's just sad.
KipLike the amount of like sad, like Ben is just playing him, yeah.
AmandaLike a fiddle, no awareness. He's been shot by this man, he's been misled by this man, and he's still like, okay, I'm gonna pull a gun on my friend to follow this guy. Because I'm he might he's told me once or twice I was special. Like it's just if it's it it would be less frustrating if it wasn't so sad.
KipYeah, you know, that's why John's still following by like a puppy, so sad.
AmandaYeah, it's it's I think that's the only adjective that works. It's like it's kind of getting like uncomfy to watch.
KipLike his story is nothing but sadness for the whole series, yeah. And so like consistent, like you said, right?
TheresaWhich is crazy because when you when you say like when you think about the first episode, I know when you think about the first episodes where John Locke was like this badass, like you didn't know anything, he was like kind of mysterious, hunting boar and like being weird with the oranges and whatever.
KipAnd like and even like when he could walk again and he suddenly like found this purpose and like season one Locke so different. Boy, he goes off the rails when Boone dies. I think
Locke’s Need To Feel Special
Kipthat was the thing.
TheresaYeah, that was the catalyst.
AmandaI think the real and yes, because I think that ties into my point, which is gonna be that I think that at the end of the day, like we can try to reinvent ourselves, we can try to whatever, but we are at our core who we are, and you can't change that overnight.
KipNo, and we've seen in his flashbacks, he is a sad tale.
AmandaAnd especially when you meet tragedy or adversity or anything like that, your true colors, unless you really have a handle on it, which he clearly doesn't, will come through. So you're right, Boone's death was probably just like a it brought out all of that again, and he can't tamper it down again. Whereas Ben is the opposite, he like gets like he thrives in it because that's who he is. And that's why it's so hard to like really fully understand with Ben whether he he really was just going to let Alex die or what that was just a tragic accident, because like you said, he's so in control of everything. Is it just that he didn't care? It's hard to it's hard to believe he'd make such a mistake, but also you can imagine someone make a big mistake like that if their emotions were out of control. So it could literally go either way.
TheresaYeah.
AmandaAnd that's and that's the best part. Yeah.
TheresaHonestly. Yeah, you'll never know. No.
AmandaOh, okay. Well, this is a doozer.
TheresaWe're we're not done. Doozer?
AmandaDoozy. Doozy.
KipWe missed one big oh yeah the the the Morsey code oh yeah because we okay okay okay I'm doing Morse code for you guys now I wonder what that says that says because that's not real says uh yeah yeah you guys I can speak both smoke smoke monster and morse code smokey morse um so oh yeah that was wild by the doctor they talk to we definitely talk Daniel Daniel says or like when did you see him last and he says when is relative to I fucking love Faraday and um he's just always like even when he's caught he's like oh so good um and then um sapph phone's still not working and Kate says we have stuff from the plane that you can use and they make it work and he's like they're like we can use Morse code finally gets it to work sends a Morse code to the boat the boat sends a Morse code back Daniel says they say we the doctor's okay we're coming tomorrow and Bernard says he's lying wait what did they
Morse Code Lie And Jack’s Gut Punch
Kipactually say I can't remember now uh no I think that did I get that backwards I think he says the doctor I think the reality is yeah they said that what are you talking about the doctor is fine is what the what the message really was I think I think Daniel Faraday just said yeah he I don't think he mentioned the doctor I think he just skipped right to the helicopter's coming back your friends are fine I think is what he said yeah your friends are fine helicopters coming back tomorrow and Brennan's like no no that's a lie and it was sad to me when Jack like got Faraday in his up in his grill and said were you people ever gonna take us off this island and he just said no and like obviously there's like this physical physical reaction because Jack's not feeling well but you could see in his face like everything he fought for this whole time he's just been it's been turned upside down and he's just I was wrong like and he finds out he was wrong a gut punch that's what I said or I was actually in the kitchen yeah and I said to Teresa because we were watching it and trying to make dinner and I said to him like what am I missing and she's like I think Jack's about to cry because he found out that they're not coming to get him like so that was the what she saw in him like and was able to that's how he emoted right so yeah it's that's what I wrote it was like a physical and an emotional gut punch because it was like and then that like something happened to him where they're leading up to what him but why is he like it's so hard Faraday's such an interesting character because why is he lying like is he lying because he doesn't think they'll understand is he lying because there is a big nefarious thing still happening is he lying because like nothing is going the way he's supposed to and he's trying to have a little bit of control over it like at this point like I st I don't understand what Daniel's up to. I don't either I I wonder if it is just that like he's he goes between doing what he's been told to do which is sort of maintain these lies and and you know maybe part of the Morse code was like just tell them this and that's what he's like oh yeah I should follow these people who are paying me and also I think he just kind of wants to do his science experiments and he's just trying to like focus on that and he's just out of his realm in this sort of like high stakes messaging secret codes like I think he's just so out of his realm that he's just like panicking and just following whoever told him to do something last.
AmandaAnd it and it's clear yeah like you said that he's kind of not quite in his element but clearly that's what I mean about it's hard to say because he also doesn't seem overly invested in manipulating them either because when he's when he's like oh he's like oh you know Morris code like he's not like oh my god I'm in caught he's like oh okay like oh didn't see that coming like like that's what I mean like it's almost like the boat people tell him to say this so he says it and then the second time Jack would be like well we need to do this he'd be like okay like he just does what he's told I think yeah and I I don't think he wants any harm like no I don't think they're not there for them but I don't think like he wants harm to come to them either. But they were hired by a man who made it look like they were all dead. Yeah so they're obviously all under the impression maybe with the exception of Lapitas that like they're not coming back with a no roster full of people that the world has been convinced is dead. Exactly he knows so it's tough I'm I they're not in a great position any of them right and what we've seen from the past is that Faraday and Charlotte and Lapitas and Miles are not inherently bad people.
KipYeah right they're not the kimi's of the world they're not mercenaries or they're scientists they're archaeologists they're grifters or whatever but they're not they're not mercenaries exactly I agree they're not gonna want to see a bunch of people harmed but they also are there to do a job exactly okay let's get these characters wrong I want to see how this got rocked did it get wrong I don't know is there rocking happening oh I did take a photo thank goodness uh oh jeez oh god I took it okay hold on let me block the screen here um I did that thing where I took the photo sideways anyway at number 17 we have Michael negative 7940 then we have Ben negative 565 Charlotte negative 130 miles negative 125 then we have Lapidus breaking into the positives with 100 followed by Faraday with 135 Juliet at number 11 with 770 Kate at number 10 with 840 Locke at number nine with an 855 Claire at number eight with 925 Desmond at number seven 1060 Sun at number six with 1860 Jack number five with two thousand and five Jen at number four with two thousand and ten Sawyer number three two thousand four hundred and seventy five Said at number two with two thousand nine hundred and forty and then Hurley our sweet sweet king um three thousand two hundred and seventy five oh
Character Rankings Ratings And Next Week
Kipbaby Hurley's raising up those rankings Hurley so sweet how could he not like he's just such a peacemaker he's just like I don't want any like the Hurley would not be okay if someone died on his account right now heck no no no no no let's rate this malaw malaw like mother well I'll start okay 9.5 Oh she's lying great episode despite the few shortcomings that we talked about not even really shortcomings just annoyances action packed high octane super high octane mystery good storytelling great characters I loved it nine and a half coco I I think I give it a 10 actually I was just looking I don't think there's anything in this season I like more than this episode.
AmandaWow do you do your ratings relative to no but I just maybe because there's so little in this set this season I wouldn't be able to even fathom that for the longer season because there's only a handful of episodes really I I did just wonder if I could see that I I don't think I think it's my favorite episode of the season. It's yeah like the shortcomings we talked about are are not even really shortcomings to the episode they're just shortcomings to like what we want to see happen and are frustrating but that also makes it good right so I think overall I I'm Tanya Raymond and and uh Michael Emerson are phenomenal actors um and it was everything you wanted to be it was shocking it was dramatic it was lighthearted even at times it literally had everything I did that's perfect ten nine oh okay all right cool good good good thank you next week is something called something like home or something nice back home something nice back home I don't care for it oh is it a Kate episode is that way uh no um is it the Jack episode it's the jack sick episode oh no what does that mean I mean I haven't seen it in a long time so there's just gonna there's a plot point that's super frustrating in it.
KipIt's really weird.
AmandaUm but then after that is cabin fever which is considered one of the most important episodes of the entire series so we're getting somewhere oh my god I don't remember any of that okay okay well we'll see you everybody