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Let's Get Lost with The Oceanic Three
We're your Oceanic Three: Theresa, Amanda, and Kip. Join us as we get in-depth about our favourite television show - Lost! We talk about everything: The Island, The Survivors, The Tailies, The Others, The Myths, The Theories, and on and on and on, but we also talk about how Lost changed the television landscape when it came out and how it still reverberates to this day.
Most of all, though, we always come back to how Lost is primarily a character-driven show. For every myth and mystery, five incredible character stories were told. They were complex, mysterious, beautiful, and sometimes challenging to watch - but the characters and their interwoven lives brought Lost to a different level unlike anything ever seen on television.
We would love it if you joined us as we get in-depth about all the Losties, what makes them tick, why they do what they do, and ultimately - what they're doing on the Island.
Let's Get Lost with The Oceanic Three
Let's Get Lost 76 - Season 4: Meet Kevin Johnson
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Michael Dawson walks back into Lost Season 4 like a ghost you can’t ignore, and “Meet Kevin Johnson” dares us to sit with every messy consequence. We go deep on the episode’s unusual structure: a near-uninterrupted flashback that shows Michael’s life after leaving the island, his failed attempts to end it, and the quiet horror of trying to raise Walt while carrying secrets that can’t be spoken out loud. If you’ve ever argued about whether Lost gives certain characters a pass, this one lights the fuse.
From there, we track how manipulation moves the plot on two fronts. On the freighter, Widmore’s operation looks like a “rescue” on paper while acting like a hostile takeover in practice, and we unpack the so-called evidence of the staged Oceanic 815 wreck, Tom Friendly’s pressure campaign, and Michael’s leap from guilt to sabotage. On the island, John Locke promises transparency while Ben Linus does what Ben does best: control the room, control the story, and push Alex, Danielle Rousseau, and Carl into the line of fire.
We also talk accountability, because the episode practically puts it on trial. Ben’s moral posturing, Michael’s choices, Saeed’s no-nonsense response, and a shock ending that many fans still call unfair all get our full, honest reaction. We finish with our character rankings and scores, plus a teaser for “The Shape Of Things To Come.”
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Cold Open Banter And Setup
AmandaWe're three best friends, and we love lost, and we love talking.
KipBut even more so, we love talking about lost.
TheresaSo join us for some good conversation, laughs, and let's get lost together. Together.
AmandaHello, everybody, and welcome to this week's episode of Let's Get Lost. I'm Amanda. I am here co-hosting, as per used with my two besties, Teresa and Kip.
KipYo.
AmandaPerfectly situated to my left and right.
KipWho's where though? Usually you say.
AmandaTeresa's to my left, and Kip is to my right, and Teresa's so silent.
KipTeresa's to my front. You're also to my front.
AmandaWhy?
KipAmanda's to my left.
AmandaHow about we just say straight across from one another?
KipTechnically, no. He's to your right. No, because she's a we're in a circle.
AmandaTechnic, technically.
KipYeah, but if she's right across from me, I could go left or right.
TheresaBut I'm in the Amanda's in the way.
KipOh.
TheresaYeah.
KipOh, okay. I didn't know that was a rule.
TheresaSo I don't know if you're going to be able to do a round table and there's three of us. Yeah. Oh, oh God. What? What was that? Touching Teresa's with my foot. She's just struck. No case. Did you know that Amanda has the softest tops of feet? It's the craziest thing. What's your routine?
AmandaIt's a weird thing to be on the internet.
TheresaAt least no one has a photo.
AmandaYou know? What?
KipThat's good.
AmandaThat's my routine with my feet. I don't really do anything.
TheresaOh, I thought I thought, because all I heard was, what a weird thing to be on the internet showering. And I was like, oh. I don't know that people need to hear about the tops of my feet. But you were just stroking my feet and talking about it.
KipYeah.
TheresaSo why can't we then talk about your soft feet?
KipWe should probably talk about something else, though.
TheresaYeah, we should probably start talking about feet. We're gonna end up on wiki feet. I don't even know if that's a thing. Is it not a thing? Well, I'm certainly. I don't know, but it must be. I thought it was a thing.
KipSponsored by Quentin Tarantino.
TheresaOh, why?
KipOh, he's got a thing for feet.
TheresaOh, that's that's I mean, I I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. You do you, yeah.
AmandaUm, what are we talking about this week?
TheresaDid you say Uma?
KipYeah, because he always shows her feet in his movies.
Episode Summary And Flashback Debate
TheresaI never noticed.
KipUm we're talking about season four, episode eight, Meet Kevin Johnson.
AmandaUgh.
KipWritten by Elizabeth Sarnoff and Brian K. Vaughn, directed by Stephen Williams. Locke holds a meeting promising no more secrets. At meeting's end, Ben urges his daughter Alex to flee Locke's camp with Rousseau and Carl in order to survive an impending attack. Said and Desmond confront Michael on the freighter and discover how he ended up there.
AmandaTeresa, this must have been such a joy for you. Another example of how when we said there were no more flashbacks, we were technically right about what we meant, but wrong about there never being a type of flashback. So obviously, we get an uninterrupted flashback.
KipThat's true.
AmandaIt was so long.
TheresaIt was long. I need, I need, I needed it to be spaced out.
KipI thought it would have been nice to be longer. Like I would have liked a bit more.
AmandaLiterally no one but Kib ever.
KipI would have liked a bit more. But we can look into that later.
AmandaWhat is that we're doing? Before we do though, I just have to be I wanted to talk about this last week and I forgot. But we have Libby in this episode again for little flash little bits. And so it's another time to kind of talk about him. We've kind of talked about it, I think, before, but last week's episode, Jin is dead in the episode. Like we're left with this notion that Jin is dead in the flash forward.
KipOh, yes, yes, yes.
AmandaThe grave Curly and son visit his grave. So that is yet again an example of Daniel Day Kim having gotten a DUI in Hawaii and being killed off. Presumably.
KipThat's what we think.
AmandaRight? And Libby is in this episode. And again, Libby and Michelle Rodriguez, Cynthia Rotros and Michelle Rodriguez both got DUIs and got written off. But is that why Well, that's the thing, is it's super controversial because literally everyone who did got written off to some degree. And then if you look at like Reddit and older posts, it all sounds like very like that's what it is. But then I think in recent times I think they've refused that.
KipBut yes, the correlation makes sense. But that's what I mean.
AmandaLike, do you guys think that that is what it was? Or and then now they're kind of just looking back on it and being like, man, we probably shouldn't say that. And they did for the record bring some people back.
KipYes.
AmandaSo do you think they made kind of like rash decisions about it and then in hindsight, or do you think it was just a big coincidence from the get?
KipI think it I think um it was a coincidence. I think it's weird that three of your cast got DUIs on one show, but it was spaced apart, though. It's not like it was one night of drinking. Although, was Cynthia Rod Cynthia Watros and and uh Rodriguez, Michelle Rodriguez from the same time? Like were they together?
AmandaI don't I don't know. I don't really know.
KipBut it it's interesting you bring that up because we're gonna touch on something in the trivia that's somewhat similar about the producer's sort of I won't say rash decision making, but maybe peculiar decision making on how they write characters off. So that's it. I'm glad you brought that up, Amanda, because that's gonna weave into a little bit more, and um we can we can bring bring that back when we need to.
AmandaI am very curious to see how many people watched and or liked this episode in terms of your numbers. So I'm glad we're gonna I want to get to that. So because I'm very curious if people also shared that there should be more flashbacks, and maybe that'll be reflected.
KipI'm not sure that's uh prevailing.
TheresaI don't think I don't think that's a popular, yeah.
KipUm, okay, so 8.3 on IMDB. Too high. Uh it's pretty high. 13.38 million viewers, higher even than last week. So they got a hook, obviously. Uh Sawyer had no nicknames today, and we are days 96 to 97
Trivia And Production Decisions
Kipon the island.
AmandaSawyer didn't have any nicknames because Sawyer was serious, Sawyer today. He was like he went too far on the mad side.
KipOkay. All right. Are you ready for trivia?
AmandaYeah.
KipDo you have sounds for that? Oh, I do. Okay. And Teresa, you have a sound ready, ma'am. You guys okay. I think so. Why did the producers decide to kill the character of Carl in this episode?
AmandaI okay.
KipBlake Baschoff, who plays Carl, was cast in the Broadway production of Spring Awakening.
AmandaOh, really? Okay.
KipHe warned Damon Lindelof and Carlton Kews that he would be unable to shoot Lost for the next six months at least. And that's when they decided to kill him off in this episode.
AmandaSo do they just get really mad when people like it? That's what I mean, though. Like maybe it wasn't the DUI per se. Yeah. But it's it almost feels like anytime Damon or Carlton are like disappointed in you, or like your life choices, or you do something that kind of pisses them off or makes it so they might not be able to because maybe with the DUIs, they were worried that they'd have to go to jail or go to court. Or anytime there seems to be any sort of like interruption in their grand scheme, they seem to take a very rash decision.
KipAnd yeah, it is interesting, like given what we know and know about the atmosphere in the writer's room, sort of the the way that they held power over people. It's just sort of um, you gotta wonder about some of the decisions they've made that we don't know why they were made either. Yeah, right. Like what's going on. So, all right, question number two. This is the first episode since their introduction in which this character has a costume change. Did you both have the same in honor of Michael?
AmandaYeah. But shit, we were at the same time. Do you want to say it on? We can both know who it is, right? So one, one, two, three, Daniel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I noticed it. It was very stark. It's like a little like long tee. Baby blue long tee.
KipFinally got to shower and find some clothes.
TheresaAnd um her hair looked quite nice today.
KipIsn't that crazy? She's been on the show, granted, not in tons of episodes, but since season one and has never had a costume change.
Amanda16 years. So I was gonna say that 16 years. 16 years. I was gonna say that it was so funny because it like she seemed to get like a mom makeover. It was like very motherly. It's like, I love you. And I'm like, what happened when she changed her shirt?
KipEverything else changed.
TheresaShe just showered all the like 16 years of crap, the intensity. But she still has her gun and her like rifle. She still has okay.
KipThird and final question. Okay. When Michael's in the engine room and he hears the whispers, what are they saying? Or do they start off by saying?
AmandaIt sounded like a song. I don't know.
TheresaOh, like that it get it's it gets better song.
AmandaYeah.
TheresaWalt.
KipIt gets better. Correct. They say it gets better, like the mama cast song that he plays in the car. Creeping.
AmandaOh, that's sad. Fuck you, Mike. Michael, I actually do feel sad for in this episode a little bit.
KipI do too. We'll talk about that.
AmandaBecause I guarantee there's some mixed emotions at the table today. What? Oh right.
KipOkay, so I take a time to research.
TheresaThere was no warning there.
AmandaWell, I mean, we have the same format.
TheresaI know, but usually there's like a should we get into it? And it didn't happen. We just launched. All right, here we go. Season
Locke’s Meeting And Freighter Alarm
Theresafour, episode eight. Meet Kevin Johnson. You know, for a hot second I forgot who this was about, and then I saw the name and my heart sank. This is gonna be a long 4 to 45er. Ugh, the recap. Michael sucks. Will he redeem himself? I straight up do not remember. He's actually the worst. Okay, finally, here we go. We're on an island. We're on the island. Looks like they gotta rake some leave soon. How does garbage on the island work? Okay. Alex, Russo, Carl, Hurley, Sawyer, gang's all here. Wait, what did we do with the grenade that was in Miles's mouth? Is this everyone here? So the other folks who followed Locke aren't allowed to come to this meeting? Um, okay, so what's the deal, Loc? Oh, Russo's hair looked nice today. Okay, here for Ben. Oh dear. Is that legit is that the legit order, Miles? How are they gonna kill everyone anyway? And why? Good question, Claire. Are we protecting Ben now? I like that we had one or two episodes of like, ooh, who's the guy on the boat? And Ben's just like, it's Michael. Um, okay, nice recap, Sawyer. Can we ask what he's doing on the boat? No dear, everyone. Everyone, get up. There's an alarm. Oh man, that's a small room they got. And they don't get sheets? Uh, what the hell is happening? Who's fighting and why? Oh, Cappy, what are you doing? Is the alarm for deserters? Save our lives, how? Wait, what happened to him? Oh, wait, what are we hunting? I mean, leaving on a raft into the ocean is always a bad idea. Ugh, Johnson. Uh, yes, right now do what Saeed says. I'm sorry? Die how? Wait, why? What about Walt? Who's gonna keep the boy alive? Interesting how you can skip the recap and it's like and you can also skip the five-second intro. Um, okay, so we're just done this convo. Okay. So what else did we learn? Was there actually a dinner involved? Okay, interesting. Imagine if they did have banks on the island. How would they get money? Um, okay, fair point, Miles. Ben does get what he wants. And oh my god, is this gonna trigger lock again? Oh, Carl, move your hand up a little, my friend. Ben looks like he's gonna chop your head off. And I'm pretty sure Russo won't be so thrilled either. Not sure which one is scarier. Uh, what else has Ben been saying? What's in the paper? What temple? Why? Oh, it's a station. I mean, okay, Ben, also, fair point. The other others? Like us like the others? Why? I'm torn about if I believe Ben right now. Good casting on this show though. I'm sorry, is Russo going too? Oh, Alex, okay. Wait, is anyone more dangerous than Ben? I mean, should we not take the baby to safety? No? Um, how is it safer there? What makes it safe? Who is Said talking to under hushed tones? Who's in the engine room? Oh, this guy. The boat seems very old. Like, I feel like it shouldn't be working. Oh, Said can fix anything. Um, I thought Michael was a cleaner. Now he's an engineer. Okay. Wait, what's the plan here? Why shouldn't they be there? I thought he was their friend on the boat. Or I guess Michael's the man on the boat? I guess all we know is that Michael apparently opened the door for them to to I don't know, jump off the boat? I have no clue. Um, I would answer I don't know what that says. Um now what what's he done? Your tap is leaking. Your water bill's gonna be so high, Michael. What are you writing? Oh, that's a cup pick. Where's Walt? Where are you going? That's a very old car, like so old. But at least he's got one of those like tape deck thingies. Um, so he likes old cars and old music? What are you doing? Oh my god, I pull out of spots so slowly and he's just giving her. Seriously, where are you going? Why are you drinking driving like a fool? I don't think you're on a street. Oh, I see. But if you blow up, no one's gonna read your note. Oh, I guess his car didn't blow up. Um, how did you know that was there? Now you have a big hospital bill. Uh-oh. Oh no, your neck. Oh, it's a dream. Okay, it's all a dream? Wait, it's Christmas? When is this into relation to everything? I'm confused. How does she know who Walt is? Um wait, where is Walt though? Seriously. Okay, you're up and walking now. I thought I guess you weren't that hurt. Um you know, for someone lucky to be alive, you're recovered very quickly. Oh, it's his mom. Oh, is Walt at her place? Oh, Walt's mad at him? Wait, how does this work? What is the situation? That boy's gonna need some therapy, but you can't tell people anything. Oh, look, it's Walt. No, he's not a big fan of his papa, it seems. Me and you both. Um, Michael, why is he mad at you? I'm sorry, you're gonna get rid of Jin's watch. Um, I don't know how much guns are. Are they $300? Good god, that's a lot of bullets. Okay, maybe you just listen, just take a breath, dude. Oh, I know that's voice. I wanna say it's Ted? Jim? Jim? Crap, what's that guy's name again? What's he doing here? I mean, there's nothing wrong with islands, sir. But why are we fighting? Is this safe? Okay, now we're fine. Okay. Oh, he picked up your gun. I mean, don't make him a killer, but wait, is he a killer? I don't remember. Uh help for what, sir? Oh. I'm gonna call you Mr. Beard Man. But wait, where'd your beard go? Uh you told him what? Wait, what did we tell him? You told a child that you killed two people? Was that a good idea? I mean what do you mean the island won't let you? Why won't it let him? Wait, how do we know that we won't that it won't let him? What work? Wow. Penthouse for not so beardy. I mean, maybe a faulty gun? I mean, this is sad that he's in the state. Oh dear, he saw the plane thing. Wait, who's this guy now? We're all very casual about hitting people hitting other people. This fruit is so fancy, but it's a lot of fruit. Don't they have a lot of it on the island? Okay, so not so beardy is gonna tell us everything. I'm sorry, why does C Dub want to know where the island is? How does not how is not so beardy gonna prove it? Oh, he's also got a folder. Everybody's got folders. Um, why didn't they try to fill the graves? Wait, C Dub's company name is just on all of these things? Can rich people really do whatever they want and no one cares? Like they dropped it in the ocean through a freight company. Wouldn't that company know that this is all a big fake? Um, so they want Mikey to sabotage them from finding the Island. So he saves all their lives and he's absolved of all the sins he committed. And then he can die by killing even more people. Oh, is this Fiji? I don't know what Fiji. Or the Maldives. Maldives? I don't know how to say it. Anyway, back at it. Okay, so he went. Not sure how he was convinced to kill more people. You know, a life for life is not really how we do things, but okay. Um, wow, all the folks are here. Naomi, Minkowski. Does Michael have a New York accent? Uh isn't it weird that he's got a delivery? Like, is this normal? Oh, there's Miles just chilling. God, I hope he has a sim carter. That call's gonna be expansive. Yeah, is flying okay for Michael or is he traumatized? What's in the care package? Is there no like x-ray for your packages? Wow, beard guy. Low blow. See, I this is why I don't do sketchy things ever, because it's a slippery slope and when does it end? I'm also just afraid to do most things. But anyway, seriously, that ship looks like it's not gonna make it anywhere. Is that like a little stub of a cigar in Lapitas's hand? You can have come up with something better than adventure as an answer as to why you're here. Just be like, hey, I'm here for work and I'm broke, and this pays. Oh, Frankie Boy, do you know that C Dub planted it all out though? Did you always have a key to your box? Is old Kevy Kev sharing his room? Who gets the top bunk? Is washing the walls really that important when the whole thing looks like it's gonna fall apart any minute? Are we shooting skeet with a with a machine gun? Is that necessary? Whoa, Kevin, why does it matter what they're doing? Or is it because it's loud, because it is loud? Uh rescue mission, is that what he's pretending he was told they were doing? Oh my god, that's so loud if he can hear it in his room. What's in the case? More keys. Oh, it's just tools. Oh, nope, never mind. It's a bomb. Um Is execute really such a popular button? Uh where's the music coming from? What is happening? What the heck? Libby, why why is he seeing her? Oh my god, don't do it. Oh, here we go. Oh my god, that's the shortest bomb timer. And it didn't work. Did that thing just pop up? Is it ticker tape? Is this an escape room? Why not yet? Where does he get more instructions? Does he have to solve more? Oh dear, I guess. Probably not Walt, I'm guessing. Turn the knob to what? He just plays with it? Okay, well clearly it's not Walt. Okay. It is Benny. Who'd have thought? I would have thought it was the beard guy. I'm sorry, who is innocent? If he didn't push the button, how then how would he know not yet? Oh Benny, wow. I mean he did kill them, but I don't remember him being told to do it. Is no one really listening to this call? Surprised Ben doesn't already have a list of who's on the boat. Uh I don't know if I'd consider myself a good guy if I'm on a team with Ben. Oh wow, Said, arms four days. Oh, Said's disappointed in you, Michael. And I'm doing it pro bono. Yep, called that. Uh Said, is this a good idea? I don't know who we should be trusting at all. Like, I like that we don't even have the map out. Oh, now Rousseau's bringing it out. I have a bad feeling too, Carl. I don't trust Ben. Ever. I never know his agenda. But look at these two in young love. Oh no, Carl. Who shot Carl? Oh, this is traumatizing. Oh no, now Rousseau, what the hell is happening? Is she dead? He's been taken out by who? Oh my god. She survived so long on this island, and this is how this goes down. Who did this? Oh, Alex.
Fiji Daydreams And Ben’s Manipulation
TheresaAnd eek.
AmandaYikes. You know what? So funny when you're like, I want to go to Fiji when that scene was happening in the show. I bet you don't want to go to Fiji. I literally Googled flights to Fiji. They are pricey. Oh, I believe first. What's the best time of year to go? And it's between May and October.
KipWe're right in line.
AmandaAnd July and August are the most popular tourist times. It's like $1,800 for like very expensive.
TheresaIt's very far away from us.
AmandaAnd then I looked at it on a map and it kind of freaked me out how it's like literally in the middle of nowhere.
KipI love that. What's wrong with that? Well, it's just because there's literally nothing around forever. Like literally, you can't even like it's one of the most isolated places.
AmandaYeah.
KipYeah.
AmandaI don't like that feeling.
KipAmanda wants to be.
AmandaI want to be where the people are.
KipShe wants to be.
AmandaThat's what I was just thinking.
TheresaI want to see. We don't have money for that.
AmandaAnyway. Disney was saying. I did look it up too because I was also like, I want to go to Fiji.
KipI also want to go to Fiji. Or actually, where you guys really want to go is Hawaii. Yes. Because that's where that was filmed.
TheresaAbsolutely.
KipI've been.
TheresaI would love to go to Hawaii. Time for me to go to the Maldives. Dives. Maldives. Maldives. Why did you say Maldives again? Because I was thinking about Fiji and then I thought about Maldives. Oh, okay. Because I want to say one of those like things over the water. So I saw Fiji has this as well.
KipI saw your face when Theresa said, Was there an inner involved? And you're curious. And then did you remember why she said that?
AmandaBecause he said there was gonna be oh, because the pound cake. No. What?
KipPound cake? Well, because I I because it was kind of funny how like they were gonna have this dinner party. Yeah. And then it's like, was there actually dinner involved?
AmandaOr did they just Miles being like, now he's eating pound cake or whatever? So was there like I had the same thing like, did they have dinner or was it just a meeting?
KipI I mean I liked that line from Miles. It was like such good insight about how manipulative he is. A hundred percent. And like how they're so easily well, John Locke, especially so fooled by Ben every fucking time.
AmandaYeah, like it's so funny to me because it's it's almost like what makes you think he isn't going to get three million dollars? Like everything. You've seen so far should actually make you very scared that he can get three million dollars when there's no bank on the axis.
KipExactly. Yeah.
AmandaBut yeah, I agree. I like that line too when he's just like because it's true. It's like, what can't he do?
KipYeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I mean, very interesting
Feeling Sorry For Michael
Kipepisode. Uh, you had a lot of thoughts on it. A lot of thoughts. It wasn't nearly as negative as I was anticipating.
AmandaIt was not nearly as much Michael Hayden as possible.
KipWell, I was expecting many more grunts and groans every time he was on screen.
TheresaI mean, when I was watching, there were grunts and groans, but I'm not gonna write every one of those. No, God, no. No, he watched it alone. Well, I watched it one time and then it's plurn tea.
AmandaI I will say, I wonder, you know, and I don't think you're ever gonna admit to this, but that's fine. But I wonder if there's less griping because it's just so pathetic that like it's almost too pathetic to even like it's not funny to make fun of Michael in this episode, it's just that sad.
TheresaYeah, yeah, well, it's not I don't make fun of Michael because it's funny to me.
AmandaNo, no, I know, but you do it in a funny way because he he gives you lots to work with. But I honestly just, you know, one of the questions Kip put on our magical board today is do you feel sad for Michael? And I'm sure we're gonna be kind of answering that throughout the episode. But I have to say yes, because I'm like fine, I'm I like I pity Michael in this episode.
KipIt's there are lots of people who don't like researching the episode, lots of chatter online is like, no fuck, that guy, very Teresa y, still not forgiven for what he did to uh Libby and no one here is, but like you can kind of separate what happened with just like how sort of so for me, I can say I feel sad for Michael. And what I meant when I said I wish there was more Michael, like I think it could have been a little bit, I think they could have delved, like written a little bit better, or maybe if they had more opportunity, like anatomy time, to really delve into what I'm sure he's going through to get to this spot is just processing the literal trauma that he's been through, self-inflicted in some ways, but even like we see the lead up to the island or to the crash and what he went through to get Walt, and he lost Walt, and like his Cynthia, I think was his wife's name, was so awful to him. Susan, Susan, Susan, yeah, was so awful. Like, he's had a bad go of it from the get-go. His actions on the island, not great, really bad, but kind of like I was thinking, like, I'm not a parent, but as a parent, you know, they showed that flashback or at the recap of him leaving the island while they're the other 815ers are tied up, and it's sort of this like, how could you betray your friends? It's like he's really only known them for like two months, not even two months at the time. They're strangers. Yes, they went through a traumatic experience together, but they are still really strangers, and his goal always had been and was to protect his son and to get his son off the island, and yeah, he did it in a horrible way, and he's dealing with that now because of what we're led to believe is what he told Walt. And I highly doubt he just like sat him down. Son, I did this for you. I'm sure like Walt was like, What happened? Like, how did we get out of there? Because he hadn't Walt had no idea how they left, and so like you know, there's all these things that I wish maybe they would have dived in a bit more into like how that impacted him and affected him to get to that point.
AmandaLike, I'm not sure we needed two suicide scenes, yeah, and not, and I get part of it is that Walt is not available, like the actor, because of all their issues, so they can't really show that, but because he's got too big.
TheresaOh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
AmandaBut they could have, I think, like you said, found a way, like have another exposition with his mother or something with Tom, with whoever, right? To show us a little bit more of how he got there. But I also think that it wasn't clear to me. Like I think him seeing Libby was supposed to show us the guilt. Yeah. But I also it wasn't clear to me. And maybe that and that's why I use the word pity more than like feel empathy or sympathy or anything more positive, because I I understand what they're going for. We're supposed to he's sad because he lost Walt again, and he's clearly guilty, and that's why he's seeing Libby here and there. But I think there could have been more to really show us the weight of what he was feeling.
KipI agreed.
AmandaYeah, yeah.
KipAnd like they they can't use his name. Walt has to have a different name, like no one knows where they were. His mom's clearly pissed because like she doesn't know where they were for months. Yeah, like it's just a lot, and it like it's not like he you go back a hero because you survived a plane crash, were the only one and you were found, kind of thing. Like it's this whole secret life now, which we see the not to the same degree, but a little bit of what the Oceanic Six are going through this season as well.
AmandaSo it's very interesting because, like you kind of said, Kip, what he's a parent. What do we expect a parent to do to get their kid back almost anything? Should he have killed two people for it? Absolutely not, but he was willing to do whatever he had to to protect his child, and everyone villainized him for it. We're about to see a juxtaposition with that, which is when someone doesn't do that and they're also villainized for that, right? So it's I think you're kind of there's no winning, your child's life is on the line. There's no there's no right answer, there's just like survival in the way you know how.
KipYes. And I mean, like, even just I like the flashback to season one finale of them taking Walt off the raft. Like I know that was sort of to because Tom comes back and you kind of get their first interaction together again. But like he lost Walt so many times. So many times, and like ripped from his arms or taken by his wife, or like blah blah blah blah blah. And so it's just like I agree, you pity him.
AmandaIt's not sympathy, it's not empathy, it's just pity because it's just like one thing after another, and he's doing himself no favors by reacting the way he's reacting and doing what he did, but still it's just like e and it's a good, it's a good reminder that he wasn't just pure get back walt tunnel vision because had he stopped to think about it for even a second, he must have known that this was going to be the outcome. Like, yeah, you don't kill two people on a plane on an island from a plane crash where everyone thinks you're all dead now and come back and live a normal life.
KipYeah, exactly.
AmandaRight? And so he there they were never gonna get to live a normal life now, and there was really no like as soon as like it's so funny because the whole like they're dead the whole time thing is such a funny like thing that anyone who's heard of Lost has heard that, so it's not a spoiler, but really I think the reality is they've all been doomed the whole time to some way once they landed, once they crash landed on this island, every one of them is either dying, dead, ill, whatever it is, but they're never gonna have normal lives again.
KipNo, exactly, right?
AmandaYeah, that's like you said, we're seeing that with the oceanic six.
KipYeah, and that's a good point. Like, what did Michael expect? Like to go back and what's he gonna say? I know well, but then he did say, like, I'm gonna go get help for everybody else. But then I think the weight of what he did got to him, and he's like, Oh, if I say they're still there, that's gonna open questions about what I did to get off and all these other people, and people aren't gonna believe me. So all these things go through his head, and Walt's probably just being like, Well, what happened? What happened? What happened? It's crazy. Who knows?
AmandaYeah. Michael Dawson.
TheresaAll right, all right, here we go. All right, okay. I feel bad for him in a sense. I feel bad that he feels that this is the only way for him. Yes. That is that is awful. Like I I I I always like that's that's awful, and I can't imagine that um for anybody. It sucks that a lot of it was his own doing, like the circumstances that he's in now. I mean I get the whole, you know, you do anything from your kid, but like I I don't have kids, so like I don't know. But I also think that like I don't know that I could do the things that Michael did because I would want to be able to look my kid in the face. And I don't know that like Michael was like really thinking of that. Like it's he was very like one-track minded. That was his whole kind of thing in the beginning. But yeah, like the whole thing is just a hot mess, and and I do feel bad that he feels that he has to end his life. Like, that is that's awful. Um but I mean, there are consequences to everything we do. And that is the problem with like having tunnel vision is that you don't see the consequence, you just see the end result, and that's kind of what's get what's keeping you going. And I mean, now it's just kind of hit him like a ton of bricks, right? Like and I can't even imagine like coming back after two months and not being able to say anything. And like, what's Walt's like Walt's what, 10, 8? Ish, yeah. You know what I mean? Like, what's he supposed to do? Does he go back to school? Does he go back to school with him? Does he I know like what what happens there? Like the whole thing is just very complicated. And like, I'm pretty sure Walt probably saw them leave those people on the phone.
AmandaTotally, yeah.
TheresaBut he's not gonna be able to tell them anything is so messed up.
AmandaNot to mention he's probably still dealing in to some degree with like his own issues, like all the vision-y type things and like that, whatever was going on with that, yeah, right. That's right. So he's he's really messed up, and like Michael's just not equipped, he was never equipped to parent Walt in the best of circumstances, and there's no way he can offer even remotely the level of support that he's gonna need now.
TheresaNo, no, like I'm just thinking, like, so it's let's say like two months before they got to that island, Walt's mom had just died. His soon-to-be stepdad didn't want him anymore.
AmandaYeah, like disowned him.
TheresaHe's stuck with this guy he doesn't know who yells at him for the first, you know, four episodes. They have this horrible relationship back and forth. I remember he like, doesn't he like burn his comic book or something like that? You know what I mean? Like just like a hot mess of stuff. And like now he's like, Well, all the people that I like, you know, bonded with, I think they might be dead. My dog is gone. Yeah, my dad's a murderer, um, my mom is dead.
AmandaDouble murderer.
TheresaYeah, you know what I mean? Like it's just the poor. I mean, this went from um Michael to Walt. Oh, yeah, yeah. But um I feel worse for Walt. Absolutely. But I do feel a little bit bad for Michael because that is, you know, unfortunately, like I just think it's sad when anybody feels that way.
KipSo let's continue with the very long flashback.
AmandaYes, too long.
KipSo, like we kind of see Michael, he's at uh, you know, rock bottom to say the least, trying to kill himself, doesn't succeed, has a flashback to Libby or a vision of Libby. Um it's Christmas time. Christmas tree is there.
TheresaYeah, I'm confused by that.
KipWell, I mean, he's been off the island. What did they say?
AmandaI think about a month. Yeah, so like
Tom Friendly Recruits A Broken Man
AmandaDesmond's like the constant was Christmas Eve.
TheresaI think it's because when he's in the accident, they say that he's like, that you're so lucky to be alive. And the Christmas tree's up. So a part of me is like, okay, then he's gonna be in the hospital for a while. And then he leaves he goes to see his mom, and the tree's still up. And I'm like, was it was it a week, two weeks?
KipMaybe. I mean, maybe it was lucky to be alive, but just suffered lucky that he had no major injuries. Oh, maybe, you know.
TheresaI mean he had a neck breeze.
AmandaAnd he looked a little like he still looked a little worse for wear when he did go to his mom's.
KipSusan's not in this hospital, Bill.
AmandaNo, yeah, he's had bad luck with well. I guess the second one wasn't really luck. Well, I mean, he just had bad luck because he wanted to die in that one and didn't. So he has had bad luck with car. I don't know how to say it nicer than that.
KipYeah, and so like he's hit rock bottom, he's in the hospital, then out of the hospital, we see his interaction with his mom and the little sight sighting of Walt. And then is that when he goes to the pawn shop to pawn Jin's watch?
AmandaYeah, that was I at first. Do you guys remember what that was right away?
KipNo, until the Discord Korean.
AmandaI was like, because I was like, What? How dare you when he gave him a watch to make up for being a dick?
KipYeah, how dare you! Oh, he's he feels he has no other options, and yeah, I don't know how much guns are, but 300 bucks for a watch. I mean, I'm sure that watches a lot more, but pawn shops always give you way less than like a tenth of really yeah. I've never, I've never it's never gonna be a fair price. No, no, I don't know how they work, never been in one and so um he gets a gun and a just a gun box of bullets, and Tom, Tom friendly.
TheresaThat's it. Tim, Jim, Ted could not remember not so beardy beardy.
KipFinds him in the alley, clearly just following him.
TheresaYeah, yeah.
KipDidn't care for the line when Tom said, the island won't let you.
AmandaOh, I know. It's it's too it felt a little ho hoy hoi huh hokey is what I was trying to say. Sorry guys, it's too hokey, hoiky.
TheresaI thought you were gonna say like hoity toity, and I was like, I don't think that works.
KipI agree, it was a little hokey, yeah.
AmandaOkay, the island is this big mysterious thing. Shut up, Tom.
KipYeah, I didn't care for that line, but then um they have interactions, yes, Teresa.
TheresaHow do we know that Island won't let him?
AmandaWe don't, and neither does Tom, that's why it's hokey.
TheresaOkay, because I'm like, what's happening?
AmandaUm, I will say in that interaction though, one of my two favorite things is said for the whole episode, and it's I don't remember the exact they're talking about Walt and things like that, and how like he doesn't want to go back because of everything, and then essentially they're talking about him like Tom being the person, like why would I try? I think that's what he said. I think he said something on his why would I trust the man who kidnapped my son or whatever? And he says, We gave him back to you in one piece, Michael. You're the one who lost him. And I'm like, Tom's kind of a dick.
TheresaYou know what though? Fucking true.
AmandaThat's the thing, right?
KipSo mean. Tom was an ass in this episode.
TheresaI mean, Tom Friendly ain't here to be friendly.
KipYou're right. It was it's true. It's a zinger bombs, truth bombs bombs from Tom Friendly Beardo. Yeah, yeah. No, that was a good one because it's like, oh, that hurts.
TheresaWell, it's true, but it's true.
KipAnd the thing is, like, Michael knows, like, yeah, he's he's done a lot of shit and losing Walt repeatedly, and then now I mean, do you think like conversations that Ben had with the other uh uh others before letting Michael go was like basically, yeah, let him go. He's gonna have a shit life. He he they knew Ben would know that he's not gonna be able to tell anybody about anything, he's not gonna be able to get help. A he knows he's never gonna be able to find the island again, so it's like let him go. And then that's like, do you think they had those conversations? Like, yeah, he's probably gonna end up killing himself. But maybe we should watch him.
AmandaAnd I think there's probably a sick part of Ben, because Ben is Ben, where he just knew he'd get to a point where like he could use him again in the future, right? Like he just knew exactly everything you just said, Kip, about how he cannot come back and have like a product, like he's not gonna go become like an engineer again or whatever it was, or what did he do for architect? I don't know, carpenter, uh building house or contractor.
KipNo, I think he was an artist.
AmandaWell, he did that for funsies. Oh, he was a I'm pretty sure. Didn't he say build stuff? He helped build the raft because he was building stuff, yeah. But didn't he also say oh it's not structurally sound in the cave engineering thing? Yeah, that was he's not going back to that. He's gonna be like a foreman, and he's not even gonna be an artist. Like, I guess he could be an artist under like a different thing.
KipSure, he could be an artist, that's what he should have done. Absolutely, you're right.
AmandaLike turned it into pain into imagery.
KipPain, could be that would have been fantastic. What was he thinking?
TheresaHe could have been the next bank seat. That's right. Imagine all the smoke monsters just smoke, just smoke smear of ash on a canvas.
KipJust as a smoke machine on his arc shows.
AmandaBut like you said, they knew they knew that he wasn't gonna have a normal life. They knew he wasn't gonna have a normal life. That's right. And they were like, I think worst case scenario, he's not a risk to them at all because no one's gonna believe him and he's an idiot. Best case scenario, he hits such a continued rock bottom that he's useful to them again by being easily manipulated.
KipHe could have proven he was on Oceanic Flight 815, like even in 2004 or four, whenever this take place. Four, yeah, they could have proven so Ben did take a risk by letting him go because he could have been like, I'm Michael Dawson, they have DNA then, they could have known, and then that would have opened up a whole can of worms. I think that's part of the problem, and maybe that's why they were watching him too.
AmandaYeah, I mean, I I was always I mean, this is really digressing, but I was always curious, like letting Michael go and honoring their word as he said, Oh, we honor our word too, or whatever, to a degree is interesting. But I I always was like, who cares? Like he can honor his word on this because Michael's useless, right? But I was surprised that they let Walt go. Because Walt was special, as they say, right?
TheresaI mean, when the kids growing at a normal rate on a day-to-day show, I mean, yeah, I think you kind of just gotta make an excuse for it and like a production standpoint in Ben's mind.
AmandaHow does he how does he like get right with this?
KipDidn't they say something to like try to rationalize it that oh we did tests, he wasn't as special as we thought, or something like that.
AmandaYeah, or like they couldn't control it or something. That's what yeah, something Q what was her name? Madam Q. Madam Q Sheriff Lady, no, no, no.
KipAnother one and done. No, she was in a couple of things.
AmandaIt was Madam Q or Mrs. Q or something.
TheresaOh, the one that talked to um Michael in the in the tent.
KipYes, yeah, and then she got killed by Mikhail.
AmandaWhich one's the sheriff? She was in the cage in the Juliet episode.
KipSeason two.
AmandaWhen they were gonna hold Juliet.
TheresaYes, yes, yes, yes, right, right, write that weird scene.
AmandaJust to try to show us that they have some stranger in a strange land. Yeah.
KipBecause she translates his tattoos at the end.
AmandaOh my god. That's why I never remember that point because it's so overborne by Stranger and Strange Land.
KipSo yeah, it was um anyway. He ends up going to see Tom Friendly in the hotel roomhouse, penthouse suite, live and large, and uh gets the dossier.
TheresaEverybody's got a folder.
KipThat's funny.
TheresaAnd it's always ready, too.
AmandaAlways and that that's kind of how he's convinced back into the plan.
KipYes, yes, um, it like fine. He sees this dossier with like quote unquote proof that Whidmore all they showed was dug up graves, they showed a purchase order for a plane. Purchase order for a plane. Like, okay, fine, but it doesn't actually prove anything. And Michael's just so quick to be like, oh yeah, I guess if I don't do this, everyone on the island's gonna die because of this guy. It's like, uh, really, Michael. But then again, is he looking for some reason to redeem himself after going through these things, right?
TheresaSo probably, but it's like I feel like that's so complicated. Like, if you fucked up, is this really the way to like unfuck it up by killing more people? You know what I mean? Like, if someone was like, ma'am, you done goofed and you'll be fine now if you kill even more people. Because you probably are gonna save people, but I'm telling you that you're gonna save people. There's no guarantee. Yeah, I'm just telling you that if you kill a bunch of people, you're gonna save more people.
AmandaLike I don't I don't know.
KipI know. It's a stretch.
AmandaYeah, it's a stretch, but it's also like at a certain point, he just has nothing else to lose or gain. Like he really, I that and that's why I said it. Like, I do feel bad for him because he's like, he's kind of pathetic. Like, I don't even mean that like as pejoratively as it sounds, it's just it's so sad. Like, I don't feel empathy for him. I don't necessarily even want him to succeed again. I just again, I'm like, well, there were times where you would well, maybe not with Michael, but there usually there's a certain times where you can champion the characters, even the worst of the characters. Like there's moments where you're like, okay, like, yeah, keep doing that. That's on the right path. But with Michael, now it's just like, oh, let's get off my screen.
KipI know.
AmandaYou're bringing it down. The vibes are off.
Theresa100%.
AmandaLike, you're bringing down the vibes, Michael. And that's hard to say with Kimi in. The screen at times, like that you're bringing the vibes down.
KipYeah, so let's talk about him getting to the ship. It's kind of weird.
AmandaAnd what's the guy? No, it's kind of nice to see what he was like when he was driving. I'm like, look at your skin, it's not pale and gray. Yeah.
KipIt's blocky.
AmandaHe seemed like a nice guy, too, so it's kind of sad to see.
KipEverybody other than Kimi seemed fair relatively nice. Yeah. So it's kind of interesting because they all start off a little bit on the level, and then when we meet them all, they're all fucked.
AmandaSo clearly like a good kind of foreshadowing of something going on.
KipUh Naomi was nice to him. Frank, of course, was nice and kind of lets it slip about his conspiracy theory. So Frank didn't say necessarily that he thought one of them did stage the plane crash, right? He didn't outrightly say it was Ben or Whidmore. He just knows because we saw him earlier in the season see the news footage and call the line, be like, that's not 815 or whatever, and that's how they found Frank. But like, so he just thinks someone staged it.
AmandaYeah, I don't think anyone knows who no one on that boat. But but everyone on the I don't know, because if they what do they think they're doing?
KipWell, that's what I don't get.
AmandaLike looking for Ben, but then they they have a dossier on all of 815. So everyone on that boat has to know it's staged.
KipI mean, like those a few of them, I guess.
AmandaLike so Frank must know it was staged at this point.
KipYeah.
AmandaBut not by knows it's staged.
KipYeah, but like more so than just like you're saying Frank's clearly seen the dossiers and everybody. Yeah, and like Kimi would have, Naomi would have, Miles and Daniel, Charlotte. So, but like the thugs probably haven't. Kimi Mikowski.
AmandaWell, Kimi, yeah, but like Monkey. Mikkowski must have. And the guy's like shooting this the skeet.
KipAnd the other stage hands, or not stage hands, deck hands. Stage hands.
AmandaDrama.
TheresaThat was actually funny.
AmandaShe likes to point out every time she finds me funny.
TheresaThat's good. She wants to be a comedian.
AmandaSo once a week I entertain her. So in about 10 years, I should have a decent amount of material ready to go for my first night.
TheresaWe'll bring back the pod in 10 years for your comedy act.
KipBut yeah, like I mean, it's I mean, it's a lot of information just very shortly presented. So we're just supposed to fill in the blanks, I guess. But Michael starts to have second thoughts because the people are nice and he doesn't want to necessarily kill them. And then Tom calls him and is a total dick again. Let me give you some other names. And he starts named Jack. Sawyer. Sawyer.
AmandaI think it's kind of effective.
KipWell, for sure. But like it's okay, guys. Calm down.
AmandaTom is really good at his job. Yeah, he is. He knows what's up.
KipBut he's dead. Tom's dead. Is he? Did they not kill him at the end of season three? Oh. On the beach.
TheresaYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see you. He did. Yeah.
AmandaThank you, family guy. Thought he got that really nice last meal off the island. It looked like it was mostly fruit. Yeah. Yeah. He's indulging.
KipHe's indulging. He doesn't get to the mainland often.
TheresaYeah, but there's fruit on the island, you guys. Let's have fruit. Let's have something else.
KipOh, that's true.
TheresaMaybe like a like a like a bee fountain.
AmandaHe's a vegetarian.
TheresaOkay. Maybe a nice gazpacho.
AmandaSo eventually we get to this point where Michael's decided. He makes choice in his mind and in his actions. Well, I couldn't think of a vegetarian dish off the top of my head.
TheresaYeah, probably a hot soup than a cold soup. But not on the yeah, I mean he's not on the island. I believe. He probably eats so many hot soups when he's in New York. Oh, maybe he'd get some pho. Oh. Or some ramen. Yeah.
KipOkay. A little tom yum. Oh, tom yum. Um, and then he tosses his phone.
TheresaYes.
KipAnd he opens his care package that he has the key to. Yeah, that was a funny little tidbit you noticed. Because I'm like, I didn't think of it until you said I'm like, oh yeah. So, like, do you bring the key with him?
TheresaBecause he didn't know about his.
KipThere's a key just on top.
TheresaNo, he always like, you got a care package. And he's like, oh.
KipSo yeah, that was interesting.
TheresaTom's just like hold this for a while.
AmandaAnd I agree with you. You kind of said it about the phone call in your shame of consciousness, but just in general, like you'd think they'd be a little bit more concerned with what he's receiving in terms of care packages and mysterious phone calls and such.
KipYeah, like Tom's just telling him you gotta kill all these people on the boat, and there could be anybody around him.
AmandaYeah, we're very casual about I think it's because they don't really care about what happens to Michael.
KipYeah, no, fair enough. So, um, and then what what's between him that and then him opening the box? Anything, or is that just the next one? Just him learning about like, yes, that's right.
AmandaYou know, and and and I think that's to kind of show us the dichotomy of like, you know, he's learning good things about some of them, but then he's like, why are these rescue people shooting skeet off with a machine gun? Like, so I think he kind of brings himself back around to I don't think these are good people, and then that's right, is willing to kill them all despite Libby trying to stop him.
TheresaYeah, because Kimi feels very different in this episode than he's felt in other episodes. I feel like in the other episodes he was kind of this like kind of hulky, hunky, whatever guy. And now he's like kind of like smarmy and like kind of off-putting.
AmandaI always thought he was smarmy.
TheresaWell, that's his face.
AmandaI I never there's a never, never part of me where I was like, that's a trustworthy guy.
TheresaI mean, I don't trust anybody, it's lost, but like I think it's because my eyes deceived me. You know, yeah.
KipYou were you were a little um enamored by his biceps, yes. Yes, yeah. When the arms are on, Teresa's not fully thinking straight.
AmandaNo, when arms are on, Teresa's mind is off.
KipYeah. In fact, she did say arms for days today at some point. Said. So yeah, I saw it.
AmandaSo yeah, yeah, it's it is tough though. Like I I I I will say I felt he was more in control in other places than when he's just like shooting skeet for fun and being silly. Like, yeah, but I've never thought that he was like, I've always thought he was unhinged and like was capable of what we saw in today's video.
TheresaI think just based on like what he portrays to like Saeed and Desmond is very feels different than what when you see him like shooting. I agree. Like it feels like like very different.
KipLike he was he was um trying to be a little bit more like he was on underhanded when Said and Desmond are on the ship. And fair enough, because like he has to hide a little bit, yeah. And then on the ship around his quote unquote peers, he can just be as crazy.
TheresaYeah, because he was like not okay. No, and then he gets to the bomb, yeah, with more keys, surprisingly. There are two more keys.
KipI mean, how silly is it? This little wander tape. Not yet.
AmandaNot yet.
KipCrazy though. I just like I mean, good for Michael for just being like, yeah, fuck it. I'm gonna do it. Holy shit.
AmandaFuck me, fuck Libby's ghosts.
TheresaI don't care anymore. Execute. They like gave him no, like, you know how usually they're like, oh, there's there's 30 seconds, there's like a minute, there's five minutes, ten minutes. This was ten seconds.
KipYeah, Michael.
TheresaWell, there was no way he was gonna get to go that would save him. No, but I mean, like, you know, like less time's better, I think.
KipYeah, less time for sure. I would have wanted a three-second or less on that one myself. Button, press, boom. Yeah, no time.
AmandaI don't want to think about it. How I think of Kelly.
KipI think that's must be a movie thing.
AmandaIt must be.
KipThere's no way there's timers on bombs in real life.
AmandaI mean, I don't want to look it up.
The Bomb, The Call, And Saeed’s Move
KipWhy?
AmandaI'll look it up on my my work computer. That that'll go. Bomb timers.
KipIt's research for for for books.
AmandaOh no.
KipNo, I meant popular culture.
AmandaUm yeah. So then he gets the phone phone.
KipAnd I did feel bad for him when he thought it was Walt.
AmandaThere's no way it could have been Walt.
KipI know, but I did I knew it wouldn't have been Walt, but I felt bad, like he was like, maybe this will turn things around. How much Walt's gonna talk to me?
AmandaHow it doesn't matter. If you if the the person you wanted to talk to more than anything in the world, what you were told there, there would be a moment where you thought it was them.
TheresaBut yeah, it wouldn't not about it would be very fleeting. It's not about too logical. I am too logical to fall for that farce.
KipWell, you don't know you're not in Michael's situation.
TheresaNo, it's just because I'm logical about everything.
KipUm, and then it's Ben and gives him this crazy speech.
TheresaIt's like you're one of the good guys now.
KipWhat are you talking about?
AmandaIs that the one you said is a rare lame line?
KipI didn't buy it from Ben, like it felt sincere from Ben, like he was like actually saying, Congrats, you're not one of the good guys. Like he was actually like saying it like he believed it, which we know he doesn't. No, but it was just like, I don't know, that felt so lame.
AmandaBut it also had the best line from Ben.
KipWhich one?
AmandaI was too distracted when they're talking about because he's talking about how there's the difference, and uh, he wanted him to know the difference between the types of people who would kill everyone and him, and how he would he even he'll go to war, whatever, but he'll he'll never let any innocent people die. Bullshit and then Michael says, Analysia and Libby, and he says, You killed them, Michael, we didn't ask you to. And it's like he's not wrong.
KipNo, he's not wrong, but like he has killed plenty of innocent people.
AmandaI don't I don't care about, but that was a good line. Oh, yeah, it wasn't like that's because that's so true.
KipIt's like for Michael to bring that up as if like somehow it's Ben's fault.
AmandaYeah, it's evidence of how Ben is terrible. It's like, no, Michael, you're terrible. You were told to get Ben out of there.
KipYeah, you decided how that's that was his plan only.
TheresaDo not point at me when you pointed at both when you accuse people of killing.
KipNo, I just meant like Ben's whole thing about how he doesn't want to kill innocent people on the boat, and then he's like, let's just destroy all communication and destroy all engines so that they just instead of being blown up, they'll slowly starve to death in the middle of the ocean. Like, that's better.
AmandaHe's like, That's on them, yeah.
KipExactly. Yeah, that was messed up. Crazy. He tripping, yeah.
AmandaStraight tripping. I really did love that line because I'm just like, fuck you, Michael. And you're like, you know, the people like and and that's a huge theme of this show is accountability and how few of them have it. And every time one of these characters who refuses to accept responsibility for their actions is reminded of it. Kate. I love it. Yeah, Kate, Michael. Like lots of people, there's times Sawyer gets that, Jack gets it, Locke gets it, Ben gets it, and it's just always like, Yeah, you guys, at the end of the day, you're still responsible for your own actions.
KipYes, yeah, yeah, exactly. So then Said, I was like, Oh yeah, I forgot this was a flashback.
AmandaBecause it never it never wavers from it. It's only like a flashback to like a normal one.
KipIt felt like one of those episodes of TV where it's like the like ripple, the screen ripples, and yeah, and then it's like, oh yeah.
AmandaAnd then by the back, you're back at the end, and it's like one minute of at the beginning and one minute at the end. Yeah.
KipSo then Say it's just like, no, fuck you, I'm taking you to the camera. That was my favorite thing about it. I loved that.
AmandaI oh wow. And how Tess is just along for the ride. But he's making the best faces, like he looks very concerned.
KipHe's like, should we be doing this?
AmandaHe's like, not my, you know, what's that saying? Like, not my circus, yeah, not my cloud, not my circus or whatever.
KipYeah. And just sort of like spills the beans to the captain and says, He's here's your saboteur.
AmandaAnd he is like all in on it, right? Because he's like, he's a traitor.
KipYeah. Oh, yeah.
AmandaLike this whole idea of like when you were saying you're streaming conscious, like, what why are you doing you don't know who to trust? It's like at that point, Said would rather trust sharks in the water over Michael, right? That's how far gone Michael is in their minds, right?
TheresaWell, I mean, I get up.
KipYeah.
AmandaSo then we're kind of left on that note. So the only thing we really have to talk
Carl And Rousseau Die Suddenly
Amandaabout very quickly is what happens with Rousseau, Alex, and Carl.
TheresaOh, fuck. So Benjamin.
AmandaAnd that's actually the end of the episode is actually not that you would think we'd be left on a huge like moment of he's the traitor.
TheresaNo.
AmandaBut instead, we're left on something much worse.
TheresaWell, we knew he was a train wrong, so yeah. I oh no, que pasa. I was so disappointed.
KipWell, a that Daniel was killed. I know. And Carl, that was very sad.
AmandaBut just how?
KipLike in your in your stream, exactly. Like, that's it.
AmandaShe's survived 16 years.
KipAnd yeah, and just like not even like the character. Like, I don't know what happened if there was something that happened with who plays Danielle again?
AmandaForlund. Yeah.
KipYeah, yeah. Like, I don't know. I couldn't see anything that I could find, but it's just like she was like a huge fan favorite. Like huge fan.
TheresaI loved her.
KipLike everybody loved Danielle. She was so integral to the story. She was such a huge part of the show. Yes, limited episodes, but every episode she was in, every scene she was in was like killer.
TheresaImpactful.
KipAnd just like boom, done, one bullet, dead.
TheresaIt was very anti-climactic.
KipYeah, I found.
AmandaWell, particularly how they did it in love it, like that Carl died, and then there's this big emotional moment of like we can do this, and he's gone, and let's go. And then like just she dies in the same way.
KipLike, I don't know, just yeah, like it was shocking.
AmandaIt was shocking.
KipBut like, and I guess that's what they were going for, but I just it pissed me off. I was disappointed.
TheresaI thought she I thought if she was gonna die, she was gonna die in kind of like a way befitting her, like kind of like epic island adventure.
AmandaYeah, I agree, and and I think that you know, she did die in a way protecting Alex, but I would have thought it would have been in a bigger, like grandiose way where she actually was able to save her because essentially she's gone now, Alex is on her own, and she's still in a lot of trouble. Yeah, but maybe that that was what we're supposed to like take away from it, which is that grandiose people with grandiose histories don't always go out, and sometimes you go out with a whimper instead of a bang. I don't know. It was I agree though, it sucked, and I thought she would have gone out more epically.
KipYeah, like it would have been nice if she took out one of the guys or something. Like she's a sharp shooter, she's survived for 16 years, she's taken out many a folk as foe.
TheresaAnd I find it hard to believe that, like I mean, again, I do not have children. Let me just preface this again. Do not have children, do not know what it would be like if my kid and I were in a situation if I could think clearly. But like, she does have a gun. You're right. And like I feel like as someone who's had to survive the others, the crash landes. Um, I think she'd be a little bit more aware. At least to like look around. Because she kind of like just turned around and was like, hey, we have to do we have to run. But like she didn't look anywhere.
KipShe just stood up when there's gun bullets flying.
TheresaFrom God knows where. Like, you I feel like she would have figured something out a little bit more than like kind of this like, okay, let's go. Because I don't think she would ever just like after all that history, like, I feel like that wouldn't be like ingrained in her to be like that. But then again, she's finally reunited with her kids. Maybe she's not thinking. I don't know, but it just it didn't feel right.
KipNo, it didn't feel if it felt rushed. It felt like they were just like, We don't want to have her in the next episode, let's just get her done.
TheresaIt was like a shock value, but yeah, not it didn't do her character justice.
KipIt is not, no. So that real really did not sit well with me.
TheresaNo, I didn't I didn't care for that either. And then Alex says Ben's daughter.
KipYeah, just like straight up, don't kill I'm Ben's daughter.
TheresaI don't know who we're now gonna be a part of.
AmandaI don't know what what and what unless she thinks they're close enough to the temple that the it's the others that but then she would probably just yell out, I'm Alex.
TheresaYeah, exactly.
AmandaI I don't know what she thought that was gonna accomplish, but and if it was the others, I mean they know both of them.
TheresaThey know two of the three.
AmandaIt definitely wasn't like or even if they couldn't see who it was at first, she would yell out, I'm it's me, Alex, not I'm Ben's daughter. She she clearly is hoping that will like give her some sort of leverage, yeah. And and to a degree it will, right? Like it is going to give her some leverage for a pe you know a while.
KipYeah, and then like well, because clearly they're there for Ben, right? These folks, so like she knows. Um, but yeah, so anyway, that was a shitty ending.
Character Rankings And Episode Scores
KipYeah, I didn't care for that. Hated it. Lessai, Lessai, so that's it. So let's see how the characters did today. Oh, yeah. Are we ready?
TheresaOh, oh, okay. So before I get into that, okay, quick discussion point.
KipInteresting.
TheresaNow, unfortunately, we have a character who is returned. Michael. Michael. Do we add him back to the ranking? No. Because he's credited in the thing now.
AmandaHe's gonna be in a few more episodes.
TheresaSo do we put him back in?
KipOkay.
TheresaTemporar and then take him back out.
AmandaYou need his old score, then.
TheresaI do have his old score. Okay, yeah. That's what I need. That's what I needed the files for.
KipI mean, sure, if we just want to see how much further he can plummet, why not?
TheresaIt's funny you say that. Because I was doing my rankings and I and I was like, oh, I have to wait till I find Michael's old score. I won't tell I won't rank them yet because you know, I don't know where he's gonna fall.
AmandaIdiot.
TheresaWhy did I do that? He obviously, regardless of how many points he gains or loses, he is at number 17. Yeah, for sure. Because he is at negative 7,940. Who's the next one?
KipWait, 7,000?
TheresaNegative 7,940. Okay, what's the next one? 16. 16 is Ben with negative 625.
AmandaYeah, absolutely added back in.
TheresaThen Charlotte, negative 130, then Miles, negative 125, Lapitas, 100, Faraday, 185, Juliet, 760, Kate, 815, Locke, 905, Claire, 915, Desmond, 160, Sun, 1,850, we have Jack at number 5 with 1,955, Jin with an even 2000, Sawyer with 2,270, Sayed with 2,905, and then Hurley, our king, still number one, 3,175.
KipOh, that Hurley. It'll be a while before he falls.
TheresaOur sweet boy.
KipYeah, I mean, let's see. Let's see, Michael, how he does.
TheresaWill he reach negative 10,000?
KipI mean.
TheresaI actually don't know what else happens, so yeah. I can't remember.
KipI can start. Okay. Alright. I did my like rating.
TheresaOh, yes, your three categories.
KipSo I actually liked the on-island ship stuff, like, even though it was fleeting. I thought it was good. I gave that a nine. Like, it was nothing amazing, but it was like good enough that it like worked for me. I like anyway. I like the Kevin Johnson flashbacks, even though I think it could have been done better and there could have been more. I actually gave it an 8.5. I thought it it served the purpose of what it was trying to do. However, the death of Danielle is a five for me. That was just so rude. So, anyway, altogether it comes out at a seven and a half.
AmandaOkay.
KipSo, not crazy. Not great, but not bad.
AmandaI'm gonna do it too. Off the cuff. Off the cuff. Ooh.
KipCan you do the math though? Yeah, no, it's quote my calculations.
AmandaUm I agree the Danielle stuff, and also just like not even just concentrating on Danielle's death, but that kind of C storyline, I don't think worked. Like, I don't think Ben's sending them off the way they did. I don't think her little like emotional, like, I love you so like it just it didn't fit with everything else. Like, I didn't like it. I give that a five as well. The Kevin Johnson stuff, I will actually give a nine because I think, oh, I hate it. I hate Michael, I hate whatever. But for them, I think they did a great job with doing a flashback in a way they've never had to do before. Right? So they never did that whole, like that you said, kind of like squiggly line type one before. So I actually think I give the c the writers a lot of credit for that, and I do think that it was well done in that regard, but it's lacking a bit. And then I'll give the on boat stuff a nine as well. Because I think that um the Said stuff, I think that was so I just love when the characters are exactly what you think they're gonna be. And Said, every moment of what Saeed did just was so good.
KipOkay, so that equals 7.6.
AmandaOh, slightly above you. Okay.
KipSlightly above.
AmandaDo we do points sixes?
TheresaWell, can we average it out? Yeah, okay. I will not be doing a three-tiered system. I write mine in pen on piece of paper, and I take a photo. That way I cannot change it based on your guys' numbers.
AmandaNice.
TheresaNow, based on instinct, how I felt, who this was about, how much I don't care about what's happening here, how much I don't know that I learned that much more in his flashback, other than his kid hates him and he feels bad and all this other stuff. And yes, his his whole thing is very sad to a point. I don't know that I believe some of what how the like kind of ball came to be. Um it's a four.
AmandaYou know, honestly, that's more than I thought you were gonna think about. I was like, oh, that's a lot of uh juxtaposition to get to a one.
TheresaNo, it's a four.
KipIt's a four.
TheresaIt's a it's a it's a four. It's not my favorite episode. My ending is it's not the worst episode. No, I didn't just. You know what?
KipWe need to go back. I'm gonna go through the archives and see what our rankings are for yours. Because maybe it is the worst one you've got you're usually quite high.
AmandaConsistent around like a seven. I don't think you've ever really gone below a seven point.
Next Week Tease And Sign-Off
AmandaI don't know. Let's check those Michael episodes.
KipYeah, exactly. That's what I need to check.
AmandaSo we'll well, maybe we'll have some more information about that for you guys next week. When what are we talking about next week? Which one is next week?
KipOh, I'm gonna go. Michael. Well, he's still in it. The shape of things to come.
AmandaOh, I love this one.
KipIt's fucked.
AmandaWhat? Yes!
KipHi!