Ever wondered how a single episode of a beloved TV series can polarize its fan base? Strap in as we strip down the elements of "Lost's" "Fire + Water," an episode that's sparked more debates than a political rally. Amanda, Kip, and Theresa are your fellow travellers through the show's narrative twists and turns, delivering a no-holds-barred analysis of character arcs and story decisions that leave even the most loyal fans scratching their heads. Our latest foray into the Lost Universe tackles Charlie's baffling behaviour and the curious direction of the show's pacing.
This time around, we're not holding back on our critique of character inconsistencies, particularly with Charlie and his tumultuous past with brother Liam. Our conversation ventures into the realm of psychological deep-dives as we dissect Charlie's erratic island behaviour and how it aligns—or rather, doesn't—with his addiction struggles and familial bonds. We also cast a critical eye over the show's narrative rhythm, questioning the placement of intense episodes alongside those that feel more like narrative lulls. As we exchange theories and banter, you might find yourself nodding in agreement or poised to jump into the debate yourself.
By the episode's end, our personal ratings reveal a shared disappointment, but it's the passion for the series that keeps our spirits hopeful and our dialogues engaging. As we sign off, we look ahead with both anticipation and a hint of concern: will our candid dissection of this divisive chapter of "Lost" resonate with you, or are you ready to defend its honour? We invite you to join the conversation, share your perspectives, and stay connected as we continue to navigate the enigmatic world of "Lost." And don't forget to swing by our social media channels for all the latest updates and discussions.
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We're three best friends and we love lost and we love talking, but even more so we love talking about lost. So join us for some laughs, good conversation and let's get lost together.
Amanda:Hello everybody and welcome to this week's episode of let's Get Lost. I'm Amanda, co-host with my two BFFs, Kip.
Kip:Hey, what's up, it's Kip.
Amanda:And Teresa. Hi and that is about what it's like to be friends with them in real life. In case anyone was ever wondering, Teresa's one of few words and Kip is not.
Theresa:Neither is Hess.
Amanda:Well, everyone, we are recording today a very unspecial, unimportant episode but on a day that's very important to us, because today we released the first episode of season two of let's Get Lost.
Kip:Yeah, season two premiere.
Amanda:And we had a little celebration and now we're getting back to business because that's how we roll here. But it is kind of nice to celebrate it because we are about to talk about fire and water, which, for those of you have watched the show, I imagine you feel very similarly to the way we do, which is that fire and water is definitely one of the first dips in this season and any good show is gonna have some highs and lows, but this is definitely one of the lows. So what a fun day to kind of offset with this exciting new premiere. So hopefully you're all have been listening, and if you're listening to this one, I assume you've listened to the premiere and you've caught up with us. So thank you so much for listening and giving us the opportunity to be able to even make season two, and it's super fun and it's super exciting to be released and seeing what everyone has to say about it.
Kip:So yeah, that's awesome. Thanks, Amanda.
Amanda:Great intro.
Kip:So, as she mentioned, we're talking about fire and water fire plus water, fire water. I don't get the plus sign. I'm gonna be honest.
Theresa:Maybe the plus is supposed to be like a cross fire oh fire plus water, fire cross water.
Kip:Well more like the symbol is in me, I agree.
Theresa:It's kind of stupid.
Kip:All right, let's hear this synopsis Teresa.
Theresa:I just like to say I would prefer an ampersand. So, as Amanda said, we're listening to fire plus slash cross, slash and water, written by Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz, directed by Kipper's favorite Jack Bender. In flashbacks, charlie relives his struggles with his brother in the band Hurley, deals with his attraction to Libby and the connection between Jack and Anna Lucía, grows Charlie feeling isolated from Claire and the baby looks to Mr Echo for guidance, with disastrous results.
Amanda:I don't even like the intro to this. First of all, let's just start by saying none of this is Jack Bender's fault.
Kip:No, I love Jack Bender. You worked with what you had. You made it as good as it could have been. There's nothing wrong with the direction of the episode, and I don't even know if it's the writing I was gonna say.
Theresa:I don't think it's the writing either.
Amanda:I think it's just it's a bit the writing.
Kip:Yeah, no, the writing, but also like the writers, were given direction from the producers.
Amanda:Exactly, this is clearly a filler episode. This is clearly an episode that's meant to tell us something in a very slow, methodical way.
Kip:But before we get to that, we need to hear.
Amanda:I got some trivia, it's just so much to talk about, but we need it. We have a system and it works for us, so keep playing on us.
Kip:All right, okay, so so, in a surprise to no one, I think this is the lowest IMDB rated episode yet 7.1 out of 10.
Amanda:That's basically a zero.
Kip:Pretty much.
Amanda:Like for loss.
Kip:Yeah, that's terrible 19.05 million. We have two nicknames from Sawyer very unfortunate ones Jabba and Jethro. Yeah, not nice. What is Jethro referring to? Who?
Amanda:does he call that again?
Kip:Jethro.
Amanda:Like, who is he referring to?
Kip:Oh, I don't know, Actually I can't remember.
Amanda:Jabba, unfortunately, yeah, okay.
Kip:And days 40, 54 to 56 on the island. We got two nights. All right, trivia, get your sounds ready, everybody, okay, All right. What famous album cover did the producers want to create with drive shaft wearing diapers, but could not get permission? Oh, instead they had to do that weird commercial.
Amanda:But they're wearing diapers.
Kip:They were still going to be wearing diapers, so yeah, I don't know Me neither. Abbey Road. They wanted you to do Abbey Road, but with them in diapers.
Amanda:Like walking across Abbey Road, gross. I'm glad they didn't saw the Abbey Road, all right.
Kip:So second question what famous painting is being recreated in Charlie's vision with Claire and his mother?
Amanda:Wow, we need to brush up on our arts and pop culture.
Kip:Yeah, no kidding, holy smokes the baptism of Christ.
Amanda:That makes sense.
Kip:But I don't know who it's by. I didn't write that part. I'm guessing Leonardo da Vinci or something. Yeah, okay, so I have one trivia note, okay.
Kip:And then I'm going to ask one final question. Actually, no, I'll make this a question. What sign is seen when the director of the commercial fires drive shaft in Charlie's backs? And sorry, can let me read with this, I didn't write it so I'll read. I'm going to read this Okay, when the in Charlie's flashback, when his band drive shaft is fired by the director from that commercial, there's a sign in the background for which lost company.
Theresa:That's a good question.
Amanda:I don't remember seeing a sign you saw. The sign is a Dharma.
Kip:It's not Dharma.
Theresa:Is it the fried chicken one?
Kip:No, it takes members in London, so that might be a hint. We wouldn't know this yet.
Amanda:So it's more like an Easter egg slash like flash for us with more, with more construction. Okay, so you'll get that if?
Kip:you and a little bit more.
Theresa:That's a nice season to be a little bit later. Nice piece.
Kip:Okay. So last question when did this episode rank on the LA Times full list of episode rankings in terms of Worst it? So that, okay, let me reword this. So the LA Times did a thing where they ranked each episode from Best to worst or worst to best, whatever. So where did this one rang?
Amanda:Yeah, third worst incorrect really there's only two that are worse. So you all, everybody's but but but, but but nice.
Kip:Six oh Teresa, no second worst I was.
Amanda:They only think strangers in a strange land is worse.
Theresa:They don't think which one do you think she's thinking? Razzle devil.
Kip:No, you're not.
Theresa:I hate that episode oh. I think it's hilarious, so good, so funny Okay that's it, but that's the only thing.
Amanda:I knew strangers. In a strange line is the worst.
Kip:So that was, oh yeah, the worst episode, according to LA Times is stranger in a strange land which you guys have to look forward to, if you haven't seen it yet. I'm gonna share the link of that list, so people can see kind of what they have. The LA Times ranks the whole series. That's cool, all right. So there you go. Some trivia for fire plus water.
Amanda:All right, I think that means time for.
Kip:I definitely change the tune there.
Theresa:That's okay, just a dead gel. So, oh, fire plus slash and slash cross water. Oh man, a Charlie episode. Womp, womp. Okay, it starts with a flashback. There are some really cute slippers. Oh cute, what a present on a piano. Where does Charlie play right now that he's so great?
Theresa:So talk about pressure. You're gonna get us all out of this. Yeah, you know, maybe it should be the parents who Do that. Well, it's all this butchering you. You know, this is too much pressure. Save us, yowza, you know, at least maybe we'll get a different piece of Charlie today, maybe?
Theresa:Oh no, his baby obsession, yeah, I was gonna say it's very clearly a dream. This is clearly a dream, charlie, let's. You know, charlie's got a chill when it comes to Claire and Aaron. Also, I don't know how to feel about Charlie's like menacing jealousy. Clear isn't gonna be with Locke. Clearly he's just a nice old dude who wants to help with this woman with her giant babies, or her giant baby. Claire has some beautiful freaking eyes, though, dang, you know, charlie should really stay away as per her wishes. Like, why is he sitting down next to her? Dear Charlie, she can have more than one friend. Fyi, claire has a lot of friends outside of you, especially because she's stranded on an island with a bunch of other people. Okay, so what is this dynamic here with this lady? Oh, okay, I get it. Oh, this is awkward. Charlie's scarf looks like moss Cute, pity. Still got the piano, though, and my god, liam's such a mess. Alright, so Caden's are. You're still pretty cute, and with Hurley in there it's even cuter. We're establishing some relationships.
Theresa:I guess I thought Charlie couldn't swim. Is this like a paternal instinct kicking in? And now he seems to swim just fine. He seems to be doing his front crawl pretty fine. Dude man, I'm sorry, but that is a big baby, just huge. It's what? Two, three weeks old. What is happening in this episode? I feel like I'm on a trip, I don't know. Oh, this is scary. I'm glad Hurley found him, at least you know. So you're really acting like he's in grade school, like it's kind of cute, like I want liver, like I kind of want Libby and Hurley to date, whatever that looks like on the island. Maybe he could take some pointers from Said get her some shoes. Man, charlie, again with these lies, so disappointing, like I think it's a little nutty to outright lie, to lock like that when you're asking him for a favor. Okay, so Okay. This commercial is disturbing, but explains why his brother was in a diaper before in the flashback hallucination or whatever.
Theresa:It is Okay. Yes, libby, yes, the Washington drive do look super new relative to everything else. I also thought that Something's weird between these two, though, but they're so cute. Why is it always some? Why is it always someone else's fault for Charlie?
Theresa:Charlie, echo must have told Locke about the drugs and that's why he won't help him. Not that he's lost people's trust, and I don't know. This is actually lying about the drugs. You know, I know that Kate can be problematic, but she's a pal and I appreciate that. I feel like at the club She'd be the kind of girl who would always have your back if someone spilled a drink on you or stepped on you or pushed you While on the dance floor. I'm into it.
Theresa:Why does Jack always look so angry? I mean, he's just trying to help on a Lucia out and he looks mad. I'll well hitting that. No one talks like that. No one. Ain't no one hitting anything. You're on an island. There's no contraceptives. Let's calm down.
Theresa:Like Charlie, you wonder why people don't trust you. This is literally why, right there, because you're actually lying. Okay, so we're seeing parallels between Liam and Karen and Charlie and Claire. I Mean not that Charlie dropped air and all, but you know the trust issues. Okay, liam, that's disappointing, and, yep, disappointing Charlie. And now lock is disappointed, everybody's just disappointed. Why does Claire have to trust you again when you lie? Why would he vouch for you? Your floor, your logic is incredibly flawed. You know, lock is a nice guy, but I'm not sure I'd be jealous. He's like a father figure to kind of thing, and not to Aaron, but to Claire, I.
Theresa:I wonder, fellow losties, do you believe that lock is right? You think he needs to save the baby because he can't save himself? What's he saving himself from? It's Charlie being real? You're? You're starting a fire in a jungle. What the fuck are you doing? Also, that's CGI fire, though. But look at how you take control. All right, menacing much, charlie. You've out Ross. You know you have outright lost your mind.
Theresa:Okay, so this is how he ends up in Australia. But this is a dish douche move, liam, like they're very simple to these boys Always going about things the wrong way. Like Charlie. Why is this the thing you do? You wonder why throw echo under the bus? Cool, cool, cool, cool, cool. Yell it. Lock, like somehow any part of this is his fault. Cool, cool, locked into shit. Like how do you throw that in his face like that, like you seem like you're using, bro. That's just what it is. Ah, and Jack comes up to see what's up. Go to a doctor. Know what this looks like, charlie? What people think? Never mind the using. They think you're dangerous and untrustworthy. No one's are gonna trust or believe you. That's what's important. Also, he burnt out echoes, trees. What an asshole. Why didn't just John destroy the, the statues? Oh, are we happening upon dark Charlie now? What's the hood up for evil, charlie? Dark Charlie. Bye Charlie.
Amanda:Okay, well, you know what's funny. While you're doing that, I was even thinking like even your stream of consciousness is shorter.
Kip:I have. I do not have a lot to say, there's only so much you can say about this. Yeah, I know it's a. I don't even think so in terms of your stream.
Amanda:I also. I am glad that Libby pointed out that the washer and dryer Seem newer, like that's important.
Kip:Is it? Do we like? Is that ever addressed?
Amanda:I don't know. The idea, I think, is we're supposed to see that that clearly is not a one and done.
Kip:Okay, yeah, okay, that makes sense, they have a lot of food.
Amanda:Yeah and they have things that were that did not go down there.
Kip:When like that computer went down there. No, that's. That's actually a good point. I think you're right.
Amanda:That's probably the idea I so I think that's kind of what they're supposed to be saying, right, it's like how are different? Like yeah, like you look at that computer and you're like, okay, this was down there in like the 70s, 80s.
Kip:Or even that exercise bike, like most of the stuff, and then it's like, oh, but they.
Amanda:And then all of a sudden they have this like brand new wash and dryer.
Kip:Who do you call like Dharma maintenance? That's what I'm gonna tell you. Wash or Dry busted. Can you order me a new one?
Amanda:please Okay, it'll be here in three to seven months.
Kip:Yeah exactly.
Amanda:You're not supposed to like talk to anyone.
Theresa:No, there's no communication but it's just questions being asked Exactly.
Kip:No, I like it. It's a good point.
Amanda:This episode is literally a disaster, and your, your, your, your consciousness does give a good basis for that. Like usual, like this makes zero sense.
Kip:So let's talk about that first, because that's kind of the elephant in the room. Well, it's not really an elephant in the room. It's known as one of the, if not the worst, episodes of the series, like some people call it the worst, some people call it the second worst, some people call it the third worst. Right so, but it's obviously one of the worst.
Amanda:Okay, for the record, I just thought that LA times might say Razzle Dazzle was worse. I think this is as I've been thinking about it. I do think this is worse, razzle Dazzle is more entertaining.
Theresa:I was going to say at least it's entertaining. This is not even that, and it's not called Razzle Dazzle but that's what we'll call it for now. Yeah, I don't know what it's actually called, I just called it Expose. Um, yeah, I prefer Razzle, dazzle, razzle, dazzle, razzle, dazzle, razzle, dazzle.
Amanda:But that at least like has.
Kip:That's one of my favorite episodes. It's F.
Theresa:Entertain, really it's the strange.
Amanda:this episode, just I don't know what it is with Charlie, Like they're. Like, I'm sorry Chris Hopgood, our dear, dear friend, who came on and said that his favorite character in season one is yeah. And maybe that was just season one, but like I'd love to hear what he has to say, because let us know this episode and, honestly, the last one was Charlie.
Kip:Well, that's the thing that I'm noticing is like we're just getting hit over the head with this same story and like, okay, yes, it's ambiguous in this one and we come to learn that he wasn't using, but he's still a fucking gong show Like treating people like shit, lying like crazy, doing irregular, erratic things. So like what's the difference?
Amanda:No, it doesn't Like we get. It's just so hard Cause, like, as I was watching it, it's like I feel for him. If that's what they're trying to do with this like backstory, I feel for him, but it doesn't actually connect to anything he's doing in like even like I'm trying to do like mental gymnastics to get around to like what cause.
Amanda:we've talked about this before. Most of the time, the backstory shows us something about like what they're dealing with in them in the present and why they either can't cope or why they're coping the way they are Right With with lock. We see a lot of like juxtaposition between like how he was like helpless off the island and now he's like taking that control back on the island and doing all these things that he wants. We see that with. We see Jack, we see Kate trying to escape stuff. What is what is Charlie doing on island that is dealing with that?
Kip:Well, and I'm starting to wonder and notice that maybe we're going a little bit further away from the blatant the flashback tells us or connects directly to what's going on on island and we're veering into a little bit more of flashbacks or just a little bit more historical backstory with maybe some connections, at least for some of these quote unquote secondary characters like lock. We're always going to have that very direct link, I think. Jack, yes, to a degree, but, like Charlie, it's a struggle and even with some like even Senate gin, like in the their last ones, it wasn't I would argue it wasn't a direct link to what was going on. It was more like a let's learn a little bit more about how they met, kind of thing.
Amanda:I think that it's it's supposed to be about an important aspect of their on island life and for Jen and Jen and son that's going to be their relationship. Yeah Right, so we want to know more about that.
Kip:Yes, but this Charlie one, like, okay, he's struggling with his relationship with his brother, he's struggling with the pressure of, apparently, his family put all their eggs in him being this musical prodigy and wanting to save them, as she put it, did you not notice in his dream flashback dream his dad was a butcher and then, all of the sudden, he chopped the head of a doll. Yeah Well, because at the beginning you're like what do you mean? Dolls had been chopped up, and then you didn't mention in your stream. So I was wondering if maybe you didn't notice that.
Theresa:I feel like it's one of those things that I saw, but I was just like why are we butchering? I think I was more focused on the fact that he was just butchering and I was like what is this doing here? Like your, it's Christmas. You're in the middle of the living room, now we're butchering stuff, and I think that was more what I noticed.
Kip:And. But again that makes me think too. Like so they show her his mom being all like save us Charlie, and then Liam kind of being more sarcastic about it, but then his dad, then his dad, which we don't see his face. You just see him butchering. I guess he's a butcher.
Amanda:Yeah, Well, because they also say later like we should have been butchers, right.
Kip:Right yeah.
Theresa:And his dad says you should have, you should take on a trade?
Kip:Yeah, and then just like the weird cutting, chopping the dolls.
Theresa:I guess the end of innocence.
Kip:Sure, yeah, I don't know.
Amanda:I guess like this is like weird dream in a dream.
Kip:Yeah, yeah, I guess that's all it's supposed to be, so it just okay.
Amanda:So that's what's the tell us exactly what's going on. But, like, what I don't understand is like, yes, the thing is like his backstory tells what. I'm looking at his backstory, I'm like that is sad, that is unfortunate. Liam's a dick. Charlie tried and tried and tried and tried and Liam fucked him over. Charlie's so heartbroken. Charlie gets led down this road, unfortunately. But none of what he does on the island like makes me feel like it's like any feeling I had for him just goes away the second I see his face on the island, because he's erratic and it just kind of seems like it's out of nowhere.
Theresa:He just wakes up with the baby and it's just like I have to save him. It's like, well, why now? Why?
Kip:Yeah.
Theresa:I would expect this to happen closer to when the baby was taken. Yeah, but like, why now? And I guess like it hasn't been that long since the whole Ethan thing, but it's not close enough.
Amanda:If he's trying to show Claire how important he is to Aaron and how much Claire needs him. But why is this? How that's manifesting, I think, is what I don't understand. Like, I understand the backstory, I understand the pain, the trauma et cetera that he's going through. I understand his like desire to make things right with Claire. What I don't understand, what doesn't come fully together for me, is what we're doing to get there. We don't. Is he an overly religious guy? Like I know? We saw, like in a couple flashbacks that he like went to see, yeah, but like if this was Echo and.
Amanda:Echo was trying to get back in Claire, like if Echo was Charlie and Echo had screwed up with Claire and was trying to make things right with Claire and he was like I'm going to baptize the baby because I'm scared. I would understand that, because Echo is a religious man who that means a lot to. But what do we have as some sort of backstory? If it was Jack and it was about like making him better, like getting him checked out by a dog, Like you know what I mean Like if there's some sort of connection to like who the person was and what their trauma was and what they were trying to accomplish, I would understand it and respect it more.
Kip:I mean the backstory. It would have been more helpful had it been about Charlie's religious past, because they didn't even mention it in this episode. No it's mentioned in previous ones, and so it's like why not give us that? To at least tie together this obsession he gets about baptizing Aaron, but instead they give us this weird backstory about him and his brother.
Amanda:And that's like, I think, tying into what you're saying, theresa, like there was almost, like they had this idea to do with Charlie and then they waited 20 episodes to do anything with it and then it didn't make sense anymore. Yeah, so it's not close in time to when he was taken. It's not close in time to when we saw that he has an issue with religion. None of those two things are really talked about again, like he mentions quickly, like where were you when he was taken? But for the most part, we've moved on from anything that would make this make even a modicum of sense. Storyline wise.
Theresa:I think that's what's. What the big problem is, though, is like because I know in recent, in a recent episode, that's when they had the other kind of like falling out, but that's not enough for this kind of reaction Like it just seems so misplaced and like he seems to have completely lost his mind, like there's no sense in anything he does, and if you want to like, gain someone's trust back, definitely not the way to go about it. It doesn't make sense.
Amanda:And that's the piece of it that I think I don't understand, because, yes, there's some moments in this show where they go a little bit off off kind of script when it comes to character development, but for the most part, they are actually really good at writing consistent characters. That's why I consistently hate Claire. That's why I consistently hate Kate.
Theresa:You can't hate her in this episode.
Amanda:She was. Why you consistently hate Michael is because he's consistently awful. Why, until like big bad things happen with certain characters, you still love them and one off things that people do to fuck up, that's life. But torpedoing a character in this like weird way, like Charlie was never the best but like obviously they think he's like I'm not using. Everyone thinks I'm using.
Kip:Obviously Exactly. It would make more sense.
Theresa:It would make so much more sense.
Amanda:Like yes, I assume you've done all the heroin on the island at this point because you're kidnapping babies and setting fires.
Kip:Exactly Like and his like and it drives me crazy how he still acts so entitled to people like Locke and Jack being like everyone thinks I'm using, I wasn't using, you know like? How dare people think that? What? What else are people supposed?
Theresa:to think yeah, Like is this the thought process of someone who is in the right mind?
Kip:And I don't know, like Charlie always annoys me because of that weird entitled attitude he has of just like he can just do whatever he wants and how dare anyone ever question him? And it's like that's exactly what's happening to like the millionth degree in this episode. Like how dare anyone question him the fact that he's stealing babies and, you know, setting fire to the camp, basically, yeah.
Amanda:What else, like you were saying earlier, like Teresa, that it's kind of like when he goes up to Locke in the woods or whatever and he's like right, I guess Locke comes upon him in the woods and he finds with all that stuff and he's like, okay, fine, I lied, but like you're not going to trust that I'll get rid of them right now, destroy, right now, like, let me Like why you're not going to trust me to do. It's like no why would he? Why would?
Theresa:you, you already lied about it, and that's the kind of entitlement thing.
Amanda:You're kind of thinking it's like that entitlement and also like he's like, he's exactly that, like it's everything happens to him. But it's that entitlement, victim blaming, like double whammy, like and. And it's kind of interesting because, like I can sometimes, like I can almost see like a few like personal like flaws that I have in with him too, like I also feel that needs sometimes, when I think people are mad at me, to like push beyond that, like like when he like he wants Claire to forgive him so badly that he like won't leave her alone. But it's like at a certain point you're like how is he not getting this? That's right.
Theresa:I don't really get like it kind of seems. I know, I know that he always acts like things are happening to him. Everything's always someone else's fault and what have you? But like, if someone is physically pushing you away, being like, don't come here, how is this still anybody else's fault but your own Exactly?
Amanda:And that's what I mean, like I think that's what bothers me the most about this episode is so much of it is understandable to this point His trauma, his background, his fears, his addictions, his like need to make things right with Claire, the like desire to have it fixed in the moment, like I can recognize so much of this as like that like instinct of, like someone who, like, has those personality traits. But there's also a limit that most people have, yeah, and like you said, keep being like, get out of here. After that, after lock, after already being like confronted for taking the baby, your plan is now to set fire and then steal the baby anyway. Like. What is the like? Is he not on drugs?
Kip:I know.
Theresa:And that's what. And the other thing is is like he's, like I'm going to say Aaron, like are you qualified to perform a baptism on this child that you've now stolen, because your whole thing is that I'm I have to say my half to baptize him. Echo's not even near you, he doesn't even know what you're doing.
Kip:Like see, I just don't get, like what you said before or like just in this episode, that he's some used to be religious, I think when he was a kid and right before the band took off, I guess because we saw that in I think it's first flashback but like he just become so obsessed with his idea of baptism and we don't know why.
Amanda:Like I don't remember there ever being like even a time. Like again, like, if you want to, like kind of lay the seeds for this, and so I do blame the writers or maybe you're right the producers or whatever, like the show runner, the story editor, whoever's idea this was like lay the bow, like you could have laid some breadcrumbs of like when she's pregnant, he's asking her about it, or when he's born and he is, and that's what I mean. Like maybe you're kind of right. Like, maybe, theresa, when you're like it's been too long, like maybe if this happened as soon as he was taken and then it was like you know what. And then, like, as soon as we saw his religious and they were talking about it and he's like it's really important that he get baptized or whatever. But it literally comes at a left field.
Kip:For sure that's so good at laying those breadcrumbs early on and consistently, they just don't do it for this one and like I haven't seen like granted, I haven't read every article or looked at every history about loss and especially about this episode but I would love to know if there is some something out there from the producers about what they were thinking with this episode and why this was this way.
Amanda:And that's the thing is like. What I think it is is. I think that they I mean not I think they did this, but I think in general, like obviously stories are meant to like drive something forward, to tell us something. I think the idea was we needed something like I don't have an issue with the concept that Charlie is losing his mind a little bit. He's, you know, anxious he's, he's freaking out about Claire, he like may or may not be on drugs, or at least he's thinking about drugs and he's thinking about all this other stuff, and so he does something stupid. I think where I keep getting stuck is on what the same.
Kip:Yeah, exactly, cuz I just don't get it. Okay, let's Vier for a second. Some of the B plot stuff. Okay, let me.
Theresa:And Hurley super cute, so the budding of their little relationship. Oh my gosh.
Kip:But yeah, there's something off when he's like Before and she just gets all weird.
Theresa:And then she don't remember, yeah, and then she's like turn around, I'm gonna take my clothes off.
Kip:But that and that seemed almost like I'm gonna quickly change the subject.
Amanda:Yeah, distract him right.
Kip:That was very strange. So like how you mentioned the tidbit about Anna Lucia saying you hit in that because I read that there was plans for a Jack and Lucia, like love connection. Oh, yeah. But apparently after this episode that was dropped, they're like no, we don't want to go that route anymore definition no chemistry, yeah, exactly no, I'm not hitting that yeah. There's literally no to care. History of television.
Amanda:But bless chemistry and Michelle Rodriguez and Matthew Fox like, so that was dropped and we never see that, but again but you know who has gray chemistry, sawyer and Kate.
Theresa:Oh yeah, little cuties, they do yeah she's like helping him with this his exercises. Can't move his arms by himself, so he really needs her there to Touch them.
Amanda:They are I will say that the show is also really good at like kind of. You know there's a lot of shows, especially back then Trisha keeps in the story.
Kip:It's very still in her mind going over that Sawyer scene and it's she's reenacting on myself.
Amanda:But what I do, like at first show, especially the kind of like that like episodic serial Beginnings of TV and on a network television they are really good at kind of like just throwing in those like one, two scenes yeah, a lot of shows wouldn't do that. They'd be like you get your five scenes. Yes, exactly A plot your three scenes of the B plot, three scenes of the C plot, and then that's what we're gonna do, or whatever. Yeah act one, act two I put out exactly they don't mind throwing in like one scene.
Amanda:Yeah, and then just give a little tidbit or son being the person he walks by asking where, and I really like that because and it shows so much going on it just keeps everything kind of like you don't forget as much then, like you don't forget.
Kip:Oh yeah, I don't really see it here.
Amanda:Yeah her and Jack are kind of a thing. Or Sawyer's arm is still healing or yeah.
Kip:You get those little reminders of what's going on without it being like beating you over the head with it. And it keeps us a little bit grounded so that you're not solely focused on just this one, a plot that they're doing.
Kip:I'm reminded to of like how Excuse me, how? Last episode was the hunting party, and it was a pretty like Huge episode at the time, because we see the others light up their torches and they have that huge scene. Jack comes back with that ridiculous thing about wanting to form an army, and so then we're hit with this episode this week, right? So it's also kind of coming off this big high and Independently, this episode is horrible. So then when you're also coming off of a high and you have such a horrible episode, it just sort of like ruined the momentum for a minute, yeah, yeah, like it just sort of like was like oh, what the hell? Like oh, we were on such a good role, like this was crazy, shit was getting real, and then that's all kind of forgotten about, and do you think that's almost?
Amanda:Like on purpose and by design, because it's like you can only go up. Yeah, I think so.
Kip:You. They have to stall it because there's 23 episodes and you can't just be this continual climb, so there's got to be a few little valleys. Yeah, this was a bad one, just wasn't have to be quite such a valley.
Theresa:Maybe, maybe just a dip as opposed to plummeting to our deaths.
Kip:Some of the other criticisms I've read is about Locke seemingly being out of character as much as Charlie. I don't know if I buy that as much, and a lot of the examples people use is him beating the shit out of Charlie on the beach.
Amanda:None of that is surprising. No, I mean either.
Theresa:I would have 100% beat the shit like, like I don't yeah.
Kip:I don't know why. Okay, I do know why people Say that. What I've read online is that they use the example of Locke being philosopher. Locke, as we've seen, but we also know Locke is sort of this like hunter on the island. But you know what? I'm sorry.
Amanda:First of all, I just be interested to see what everyone else has to say about that, if it's out of character and what. The second thing I want to say is I don't in any way condone violence. I don't think it's ever okay to hit someone, but I don't think it's. I think the way he did it was actually still pretty interesting. He did it was actually still pretty in character because it was actually as much as we say beat the shit out of him, kicked his ass, he needed stitches. He hit him three times and it was actually in like a very like controlled. Yeah, he talked him out of it. He talked him into giving the baby up. He gave the baby to Claire. Claire and the baby were gone and Locke very precisely and very methodically Took him down three times and Again it's.
Amanda:I don't think that's okay. I would never do that or want to see someone doing that. But in a situation like that, I don't think it was out of character because it was still so. There was a purpose to it, like it was to be like Okay, we're all good, you're never doing this again. Yeah, I'm gonna tell you how wrong it was. Right, it was almost like a, like a punishment.
Kip:I agree it was a punishment and I also kind of feel like it was a moment where, if you kind of look at it, like there was this crowd of angry people surrounding him and he just stole in the baby. That's not cool. He just basically that the camp on fire. Yeah, not cool. Yeah, a lot of really angry people at Charlie at that moment and I kind of feel like Locke just Diffused it, I agree instead of like everyone getting their torches, the villagers getting their torches out and running after him and running him out of the village, out of the camp.
Kip:He would like get the fuck out of here, charlie. We never want to see you again. He just diffused instantly. Yeah.
Amanda:That's what I mean about like there being a thought to it being more like a punishment than like it's not. Like he ran in, there was like beating the crap out of him and need to be Pulled off of him and he was trying to like hurt him. Yeah, I think that was like and again, I don't think that's appropriate in society, but they're not in it like a normal society there has to be like there I don't was has.
Amanda:That is like their form of like, like the consequence and punishment, like people have to see that that wasn't okay, yeah, and that that's what's gonna happen.
Kip:Yeah, exactly.
Amanda:They can't like put him in a bamboo jail cell for like the next 20 years. Well, and I just I also, like we.
Kip:Locke has not always. He's not always just philosopher, he has many different Personas, if you want to put it that way. I Know what made me laugh, but your stream of consciousness was he CGI fire. Oh, so bad. They just can't get CGI right on the show.
Amanda:Well, what's 2000? But at this point I fish five, six.
Theresa:It was really bad. It was just a one CGI item. Yeah, the budgets, yeah, but I know but fire one CGI item and it was just like pasted.
Amanda:Oh my god even that like what is he thinking?
Kip:I know the fire. I like, yeah, it was the distraction, whatever. But like you, don't Think that's an appropriate distraction unless you're under the influence of something, and that's why it's so weird that you've completely lost.
Amanda:Yeah yeah, and again, I just don't think. I know we're talking about other stuff and now we're going back to it, but we can't just so hard. Like yeah, I think that's what it is Like. The reaction and the issue do not in any way compute. Like Fine, like at some point do I think anyone on that island is capable of losing their minds and setting fires and whatever shirt? Yeah, but because Claire doesn't want you near her and the baby.
Theresa:It seems like an overreaction.
Kip:I like. Why would he not just well, he never listens to anybody, but just listen to the people saying Claire just needs some space. Give her some space.
Amanda:Yeah, just it. Doesn't she say something like for now, for now? Yeah, just like give me a little bit, like just for now. Yeah like she's even reassuring her, like Like assuring him, saying like this is what I just need now. It's not gonna be like she's essentially being, like it's not gonna be forever.
Amanda:We're friends, kate said kind of similar things like I'll tell her what you need to say. Even lock, like when that first conversation they have is Okay, and lock is like kind of defending him to Claire Right, cuz he's saying what he thinks he needs to save him, because he can't save himself.
Kip:That's a good question because you said do you agree with that or do you think that is accurate? Yeah but like what is so? Like locks quote was Charlie thinks he needs to save Aaron because he can't save himself along those lines, yeah, and like his chart. So what does that mean? Like is Charlie can't save himself from the drugs, he can't save himself from his own self doubt. Like what does lock mean there?
Amanda:Save himself from being on the island like just in general save himself from Losing this family is new, I think that's probably more what it is like. He's just so afraid of being left behind again, right, and like giving something to someone and having it be taken away, which is, I think, like what the writers are trying to get at.
Kip:Yeah, I could see that because, you see, the piano is the symbolic to of him losing Liam and losing, you know, megan and the baby and everything they're leaving him to, and and like I think, and he is entitled and he is like one of those Like what does this keep happening to me?
Amanda:Why I do all this stuff for everyone and then I get fucked over. Yeah, I understand that, but like again it's. I think that they did a bad job of like showing that. I think that's what it's trying to tell us. I think it's trying to tell us, like Charlie's freaking out because he thinks that Someone is like Claire is out, taking Aaron and herself and being like I don't want anything to do with you, and that's what happened with Liam and his life went to shit. Yeah, that's gonna happen again and again I get that. But what does the baptism have to do?
Kip:I know it's so that's the thing.
Amanda:Like it does not tell us like let's rewrite this episode.
Kip:Yeah.
Amanda:I think we could tell exactly what it's trying to tell with, like, a Better symbolism.
Amanda:Yeah like and I can't come up with off the top of my head, obviously, but I think we can come up with something better, because all of that makes sense to me. Like you're upset, claire. It doesn't want you around the baby. You're upset that everyone thinks you're on drugs when you're not, which is probably a little bit what happened with Liam. You're upset about holding everything together and then having it kind of pulled out from underneath you and like everyone having all this pressure on you and this and that or whatever, whatever, whatever. But why are you stealing a baby to try to baptize? How is that saving Aaron instead of saving yourself?
Kip:Yeah, exactly, I guess saving him from hell. Well, yeah purgatory.
Theresa:But I mean, I think if I was gonna rewrite it, we would take out the baptism and instead of him trying to save him that way, it would be him trying to Prove that he's able to provide. Yeah, so it would be like here's some nappies. I made this, I did this, I did that, more proving yourself and less Kind of manic. I'm gonna steal the baby. It just doesn't even make sense.
Amanda:And that little kind of combo they have with Echo or he has with Echo. It's not enough to make me convince that.
Kip:No, no, no, that was so weird.
Amanda:And then for him to be at the end too, like ask Echo. Echo said it Echo's like. This isn't the way. Even then he's throwing Echo. It's Echo's fault.
Kip:Yeah, exactly, it's Echo's idea. It's always someone else's fault with Charlie. Someone else's idea, but then like it was even weird to me how they like made Claire almost buy into it and be like talk to Echo, do I need to baptize Aaron? And then they do baptize.
Theresa:He baptizes them all, I think that's what I was a little bit confused about too At first. And then I remembered that Aaron's name is like a biblical reference. But and then I was like, is it? Is it that like she? I just kind of at that point made up kind of in my head that like she's always had ties to like religion, but she's never been like that into it until it's kind of hit in the face and Charlie I'm assuming that Charlie's craziness has like kind of seeped in and she's like, yeah, I think he's right, like I should do this.
Kip:But like I don't know if it and maybe I just don't remember, but like I don't know if it she named him out of a biblical reference because she brings it up and Echo says it's. He brings up the biblical reference. So I don't even think Claire has ever had any sort of biblical or religious reference on the show, and then to suddenly like say maybe she's the Charlie's craziness seeps in a little bit to suddenly be like oh shit.
Amanda:maybe you need to baptize, but what is that? Is it that? So that's a great question, because, when you think about it, is it that that's the only tangible way to add some sort of safety? Because we saw that she was looking for that earlier too right, she wanted to go into the hatch.
Kip:Yeah.
Amanda:She was happy when Locke was going to come to her. So she's looking for that security and safety and I think what might take why I think that scene happens and why I think she does. That is one of two things. Either she's tried all the safety stuff, like she wants to go into the hatch. First she had Charlie, it didn't work. Then she wanted to go in the hatch and Locke said no, but he'd come and say there, that still didn't work, there's no safety for her. So she's going to that like divine, like at this point I'll try anything. Echo seems safe, I'm going to try this. That's my one thing that makes sense and that Charlie being doing all this is pushed her even more to try anything. The other kind of aspect could be is that like maybe she does believe on some level, because she does care about Charlie and this, and that that Charlie is right. It's just the way he's going about it. She can't reward.
Amanda:So those are my two literal. I also think when I think about it between the two, a part of me does think that it is that, like, she does believe him that it's important and that if he acted like this it must be really important. But she can't abide by that being his way of going about it.
Theresa:That makes sense.
Amanda:That's kind of how I like to think it that way, because they do, they are connected very much.
Kip:They are yeah.
Amanda:He means a lot to her, he, she trusts him a lot and like I think that's why it's like I think if she had said, if they were on good terms, and he said, you know, I grew up religious, I'm really ready to run me and take it, I do think it'd be a good idea, I think Claire would have done it, but she can't. And I think she trusts him on some level still and we're seeing that by her going. I do think that's what it's trying to tell us is like on some level she does trust him still she can't just trust. She trusts his heart but she doesn't trust his actions.
Kip:Yeah, and I mean that all makes sense. It's just to me it's a reminder of how poorly this episode was executed. Correct, right, because that does make sense. And you've just written this episode 10 times it already is in those few paragraphs Like it would have been made so much more sense and been much more impactful. Yeah.
Amanda:If that was someone made clear. Yeah, exactly, instead of just so random and out of the blue Cause we are.
Amanda:I mean, I know that it's hard and then we're spoiling too much to say that obviously the relationships between a lot of these characters honestly Claire and Charlie will become close again or at least reconcile in some degree. I'm sure everyone can expect that that's going to happen. How it will happen, who knows. But like I think that that's also laying the seed work for that kind of stuff. To show, like you know, these people don't know each other that well.
Amanda:They're putting a lot of faith and trust in each other to even just survive the nights.
Kip:It's a good reminder. Right, it's a good reminder. It's been what 50 days?
Theresa:54, 56.
Kip:Yeah, so total strangers yeah.
Theresa:That's why, like when she says, like no, we met, we were in a playing crash and we became friends and even lock being like. Neither are you when he's like you're not his father. You're not his family and he's like, are you?
Amanda:Yeah, that's, and that's just so like the fact that he continues to double down well surrounded, and that's why, like you know, we have a board that we look at or whatever, for each episode and keep it written on it. One of the questions is was Charlie using and yes, we're supposed to know that at the end of by the end he's not using, et cetera, but like, why would that not be what everyone thinks?
Kip:Exactly what did you think of? Lot or not Like Jack's interaction with Charlie very brief. Comes to stitch him up and just says, like I need to know you're not going to do that again.
Theresa:Probably because he's like then I'm going to have to find a way to jail you and like then we're going to have to have a watch over you. But also probably because he was like, you know, for someone who was using and is not using. This is not normal and so like we need to make sure, like it's bad enough. We have enemies out there. We really don't need this kind of danger within our own. Like you said, you set a fire and you started stealing babies. Like come on, like that's what they were, that's what they did. Yeah, totally Like. So why, you know? So I kind of get it.
Amanda:I mean, that's a little bit of it too right. It's like some symbolism of like. Now they're trying to kind of becoming everything that he was trying to protect her from. Yeah, which is like obviously a pretty obvious connection to make. But I just get a little bit annoyed when Jack goes off and does whatever the fuck Jack wants to do for ninety, nine point nine percent of the episode and then he saunters all up like the hero he is and he's like I got to stitch you up.
Theresa:Well, don't do it again. He's a doctor.
Kip:He's a doctor. I meant of course he's so hard not to do it again.
Amanda:Well, like he comes in, like this, like it's my decision, like it's my role to come in and make sure you're not going to do it again.
Theresa:It's like I think Locke took care of that already buddy.
Kip:Yeah.
Amanda:Where the fuck were you? Well, locke was being the shit out of the beach making sure it's not going to happen again.
Kip:He's probably pushing the button. God damn button.
Amanda:Yeah, the.
Kip:Yeah, I did not have a negative reaction to.
Theresa:No, me neither.
Kip:It's not negative, I'm just saying it's always it's not pretty negative, it was pretty intense.
Theresa:But like it all saunters over yeah no he's. I didn't have that big a problem with either, In fact it was that I like it. It was expected for me and like that's how you liked me.
Amanda:Yeah, I liked it.
Kip:I'm actually glad you said that because I didn't think you did like it. It's just no me neither.
Amanda:It's funny that he's just like, like, he's just that guy, he's like such a leader. You know he's like oh I was just off hanging out that and lose me and all that happened. I'm going to come in and be like. I'm going to wig my finger at you and be like don't do it again, sir. Like, what a stereotypical leader. It would have been like Locked it all in the dirty work.
Kip:It would have been more interesting if he, if Jack, actually was a bit of a doctor besides the stitching and been like you know you can talk to me about the drug use. I know you say you're not using, which is great, but it's hard, so what, you can come talk to me about it anytime you want, like I would have liked to have seen that withdrawal presents it, yeah right, in different ways.
Amanda:Jack's not actually that great.
Kip:No, he's a spinal surgeon. Remember, he's an amazing surgeon.
Amanda:Don't be.
Kip:He's not a great doctor.
Theresa:Do we know at this point that Libby's a psychiatrist or like was a doctor?
Kip:No, we do. She says that on the beach. Okay, yeah, we've already had 40 other 48 days.
Theresa:Yeah, and she says that in that she's a clinical psychologist Like why don't? Why don't? Why do we not? Yeah, just be like. You know you're probably going through a lot right now. You know clearly. Maybe you should talk to Libby.
Kip:She's a clinical.
Amanda:She's actually said it several times, yeah, like maybe you should come see him.
Theresa:Yeah, totally yeah, like just do something, because like he's not okay.
Kip:That's right. We have resources. Now, you know I don't we have a whole mental health resource system. I think honestly at this point.
Amanda:They need to have a few more delineated rules in this society, exactly here's the doctor's hut.
Kip:Yeah.
Amanda:Here's the psychiatrist's hut. Here's whatever other torture. Yeah. Oh they need to get a school system set up. Well, there's no kids.
Theresa:There's no kids and Aaron, who was growing at an incredibly rapid rate he's going to need school in about four days. My goodness, that is a lot we have a priest?
Amanda:Yes, a little church, a little doctor's office, a psychiatrist's office, an auto pack, you know like just get an awesome. And I thought I'd then swear you could start a little library with like three books, a little library, oh my. God swear the librarian would be so cute.
Kip:Okay, that's cute Fanfic.
Amanda:Oh yeah, fanfic.
Kip:So I'll write that one, Teresa.
Theresa:Okay, because I'm still struggling the Shana and Said one is really just.
Kip:Oh, boy it's not writing itself?
Theresa:Oh my God.
Kip:So I guess that's how did this episode end. Oh my God, Charlie creepy, Charlie Charlie.
Theresa:What's this head up, and then that means that he's gone to the dark side.
Amanda:Now, when Charlie had his head up, he's dark. And as this went down, he's lightness.
Kip:We have very overt symbolism here.
Theresa:Because, like he had his head up when he was setting that fire, that's right.
Amanda:He needed to go incognito for that, because then he?
Theresa:then. He then just casually walked away from the fire. He started. Yeah, he's a kind of busy right now. Said, said will literally rip your head off in five seconds. Oh yeah, like you are lucky that he wasn't like doing what.
Amanda:Yeah, how did no one say that.
Kip:If Said had seen him light that fire, there'd be no Charlie.
Amanda:No, it'd be yeah lock, three hits would have been nothing A vacation?
Theresa:He would have just shoved bamboo. So yeah, the last little bit is Claire getting baptized, which right Right Disgust.
Amanda:And then I'm not sure.
Kip:Weird, but not weird, I guess. Alrighty, here we go. You know what that music means. It's now come to the end of this week's episode of let's Get Lost Fire plus water. Theresa, I want to hear you go first on your rankings. This week it's a six, OK.
Theresa:I really just did not care for this episode and anyway it didn't make a lot of sense to me. My favorite parts were like the like B plots that you saw like yeah, maybe five minutes of in the entire episode, and that's why I have to give it such a little score. I just it was not successful for me and, to be honest, I completely forgot about this episode, and that says a lot because I remember tidbits of most kind of somewhat at least. When I see them and watching this episode I was like, oh yeah, he tried to steal that baby. What a weird thing to do, but there's a reason. And then there was no reason and I was like, ok, well, never mind.
Theresa:So yeah, I'm giving it a six, ok.
Amanda:And you know, even if the dream had been more vivid you know like, I just keep trying to think like how could we improve it?
Amanda:You know, yeah, the point is that there's so much improvement that's needed I can't turn my mind off of it. I can't give this more than four. Like I think that, like it can't reach the 50 percent mark for me because so much of it was bad. I actually don't hate the flashbacks. Like I think that, like that's fine, I think it's a lot of the same. Like we get it. Like you had a band.
Amanda:It went to shit because your brother which like let's clearly this is a very thinly veiled, like you know, hint to Oasis. Like, like we get it. Like your your life sucks. I don't want to be beat over the head with anymore, but I get it. Like it shows a little bit more the exact breakdown of him and Liam but on Island is just such crap. It makes no sense.
Amanda:For all the reasons, we were so happy to spend the last 45 minutes telling you so I won't do it again. But the little bits that mark it up to that four is a bit of the flashbacks are OK and, yeah, I like, like I said before too, I like that they still kind of give us just like a little hint of everything to make sure we don't forget some of these other subplots. I do think that the Claire baby baptism thing in the end could have shown us more and kind of tried to, so I thought that was kind of sweet. I love Claire. I wanted to be happy. If that's how she's going to be happy, then great evil. But then they just hit you over the head with evil Charlie.
Amanda:And so it's just, it's a mess. I don't know if this is one you're going to hear a lot in life for those who are just kind of watching it for the first time that it really was a show that probably should have been more of like an 80 episode show that they pushed to 119. That becomes obvious at very specific points. Is this one of them? Or was this actually always going to be it? Who knows? But it just doesn't work and that's why it's a four.
Kip:It's a three for me, like I, just it doesn't work. Everything falls flat for me and I I often enjoy the filler episodes. I think, even if they don't give us something Biblically not biblically, but like completely crazy relevant to do with the whole mythos of of loss there's usually something entertaining, and this, just there, was nothing entertaining. Everything fell flat. I hate Charlie on the best of days, so this was just even worse. Yeah, just not a good episode of TV or terrible episode of loss, and so it's worse than me.
Amanda:It's a Back in the day, you couldn't immediately like rinse the taste of this. I know you have to wait a week with next week, so you had to wait a whole week.
Kip:So I'm wondering how many viewers are going to lose because of this shit show.
Amanda:Yeah, that's interesting. We're at nineteen point five, so it'll be interesting to see what they did next week. It's going to be love to tune in, all right.
Kip:Take her away, give us an outro, teresa, it's not this All right.
Theresa:Well, that was today's episode. We hope you guys liked it. Please rate and review wherever you get your podcast. Follow us online at let's get lost dot pod on Instagram and Facebook, and we'll see you guys next week.
Kip:All right.
Theresa:Bye.
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